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md3
Dec 26, 2006, 4:36 PM
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Why have fixed draws (nylon with quick links to the bolts) been placed on Total Recall? It’s a hard route, but not very steep. You can easily pre-place draws on the route after doing one of the more moderate routes to the right as a warm up. This route has been done many times for many years without fixed draws. Personally, I don’t like the way they look and I do enjoy sitting out there and taking in the scenery, including that big clean face. To me, areas with lots of fixed draws look like gyms and I think they are ugly. Camouflaged hangers alone don’t have nearly as much of a visual impact. Additionally, a lot of hikers enjoy the area and I would guess they appreciate the beauty of the dramatic rock faces. Both local and tourist hikers are out there all the time.
I know people have left draws up on routes on the right side of the Oven wall for long periods, but the Oven is a shorter wall and the routes on its right side are steeper and less visible than the White Wall.
The Pit is already a convenient sport area. It would be a shame to see access jeopardized by increased and unnecessary visual impact. Of course fixed chain draws on all the classics including the Joker, Purple Shark, the Energizer, etc would make the area even better for quick, regular training sessions, and there is a part of me that would like that. However, I just don’t think its worth the sacrifice of the visual aesthetic. When all the college kids are gone the Pit is an incredibly peaceful and beautiful place given how close it is to a trail head and town. Its not a gym. There is a decent gym in town.
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sonso45
Dec 26, 2006, 10:03 PM
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Leaving fixed draws lead to the moratorium on bolting we had been dealing with in our national forests for several years. Guys were working projects in the Superstition's Zonerland and left draws all over. Next thing you know, no bolting anywhere in US Nat'l Forest.
History repeats itself, ours included. I love the Pit, it's convenient and beautiful. Take that shit off, whether it's laziness or convenience doesn't matter. It doesn't belong there. There's many other spots far from such potentially contentious places.
(This post was edited by sonso45 on Dec 28, 2006, 3:19 AM)
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michaelmcguinn
Dec 29, 2006, 11:21 PM
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Over the years The Pit has seen many draws left behind.
I climb at The Pit and don't want to see draws left at all.
Most climbs are pretty easy to put the draws on.
The sling on Sling fest is now missing though. Kind of a bummer. It was new and part of the climb.
MM
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climbsomething
Dec 29, 2006, 11:52 PM
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I'm not strong enough to climb Total Recall no matter what kind of draws are on it, but you know what I think is ugly? The swinging 2-foot chains and Mussy Hooks on Mr. Slate and Popeye's. Sure, I've used them several times over the years and I appreciate the convenience, so call me a hypocrite- but you can see them from quite a distance, and I wonder how many people they tempt who probably shouldn't be there. Plus, the sharp inside edges give me the willies. What's wrong with Fixe sport shuts if you want drop and go anchors on the popular moderates?
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Dec 29, 2006, 11:54 PM)
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markguycan
Dec 29, 2006, 11:58 PM
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I climb at the Pit, it's a local crag for me. I can see leaving draws, temporarily! If you are working a route and are prety close to getting your "pink point" I'd say it would be acceptable to leave them up for a couple of days at most. Otherwise, I feel that any permanent visible pro is an eyesore. I fully support camoflage painted hangers.
(This post was edited by markguycan on Dec 30, 2006, 12:01 AM)
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michaelmcguinn
Dec 29, 2006, 11:58 PM
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Most visible human impact at The Pit????
All those white chalked holds. Thats what I see from the other side of the canyon.
MM
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sonso45
Dec 30, 2006, 12:00 AM
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How would you guys feel about a fixed frost draw left on slingfest? I think it's a good alternative, fits in with the hardware anyways.
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michaelmcguinn
Dec 30, 2006, 12:05 AM
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Explain more about this Sling Fest idea.
Some day the block at the roof on True Value is going to come off. Thought about moving the fixed pin at the crux up but making it reachable by a fixed draw.
Arn't frost draws 8 kn??? Big chains... hhmmm?? Not a fan
MM
(This post was edited by michaelmcguinn on Dec 30, 2006, 12:07 AM)
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jaybro
Dec 30, 2006, 12:13 AM
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michaelmcguinn wrote: Most visible human impact at The Pit???? All those white chalked holds. Thats what I see from the other side of the canyon. MM
yeah, those holds should come down evey night, damnit.
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michaelmcguinn
Dec 30, 2006, 12:17 AM
Post #10 of 16
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HA HA. 
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sonso45
Dec 30, 2006, 1:46 AM
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The huge chains haven't always been there. All it takes is some cash and a couple rap hangers, voila! Go girl.
I would be willing to put in the frost draw, it's strong enough. Less visible than the chalked holds and way too big hardware.
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Ains
Nov 8, 2007, 5:18 PM
Post #12 of 16
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What's next? If people want to gym climb then climb in a gym. It's as simple as that. If I struggle to redpoint 5.7 sport, I don't go and hang fixed draws and expect others to be cool with it. Whoever placed them please remove them. It is an eye sore and not necessary. Let's keep things as clean as we can. After all, we're already sport climbing.
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fearlessclimber
Apr 6, 2008, 1:33 AM
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Whats funny about this subject is all the people in flagstaff "locals" complain about whats wrong with an area. For example in this case it is the fixed draws. Which is ironic because we the locals are the ones that put up the draws, cake the holds with chalk and don't do much about it. Why don't you go take them down instead of complaining on some lame beginner website about it where noting will happen but more bickering and arguing. Go out and start doing stuff for the area and maybe if you're lucky others will catch on. Soon enough what do you know, he complaining for the last 4 years on some rock climbing site gets us no where and there goes our access given away to the tree hungers or something because they don't like bolt shine or something. I'm just tired of reading complaints. I am not complaining by the way im just tired of hearing it, and i honestly don't care what you old men think of me.
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ja1484
Apr 6, 2008, 3:08 AM
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I have a hard time having sympathy for this kind of issue. Sport climbing created this monster, they can deal with it. Talking about the "visual aesthetic" of a sport crag is just ridiculous IMO. They aren't in existence for looks.
Not that I don't sport climb or dislike it, but I'm a firm proponent of clean your crap up when you go home.
Fixed draws on projects is accepted behavior in a lot of places. Out of towners might take things into their own hands. Tough nugs...find out who put 'em up, and address the situation.
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Apr 6, 2008, 3:10 AM)
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socialist_wolf
Apr 26, 2008, 4:19 AM
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Just to throw out a dissenting opinion that I'm not sure I even agree with: it seems like Total Recall, as the hardest (well, maybe second hardest) route at The Pit, is going to see a tremendous amount of projecting, meaning people might be leaving draws for extended periods of time anyway. If this is the case (and I really don't know if it is) then is it that big of a deal to have draws in place 100% of the time instead of, say, 90% of the time? The Joker has fixed draws and I've never heard anyone complain about that.
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zeke_sf
Apr 26, 2008, 4:50 AM
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socialist_wolf wrote: Just to throw out a dissenting opinion that I'm not sure I even agree with: it seems like Total Recall, as the hardest (well, maybe second hardest) route at The Pit, is going to see a tremendous amount of projecting, meaning people might be leaving draws for extended periods of time anyway. If this is the case (and I really don't know if it is) then is it that big of a deal to have draws in place 100% of the time instead of, say, 90% of the time? The Joker has fixed draws and I've never heard anyone complain about that.
Yore rite.
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