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Power_Tie
Feb 6, 2007, 7:54 PM
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Hi there,
I had an etiquette question about occupying climbs.
I went to an outdoor climbing area last weekend, and with some help, set up 4 top ropes that were all close together. I was leading a team of 10, doing team building for my management group.
An hour later, a couple other climbers showed up, and began to complain about us hogging routes! We were friendly, and offered to let them use our top ropes, but they wanted to lead climb the routes, and I did not want our top ropes pulled down, since reestablishing them would be a hassle.
They were fairly rude, and tried to give me lip about how leading climbs has some sort of right of way over top rope climbs. At that point I told them they were no longer free to use our top ropes.
They moved off to climb something else, but I do feel a little bad I lost my cool. I am sure something could have been worked out, but they were very rude and confrontational, and I was trying to conduct a business exercise with my employees.
I am pretty sure I was in the right, I can't see how it would make sense that I got there first, and then someone else can show up and demand I remove my top rope because they are going to lead it.
Is this a common climber rule?
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keithlester
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Feb 6, 2007, 8:01 PM
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Its bad form to take up what were probably the four most popular routes on the crag. If you had a group of ten on team-building, how could you supervise them on all four routes at one time anyway? I'd say you were rude too, by leaving a rope on a route and not actually climbing it, otherwise how did you manage to offer your ropes to the other guys to climb on? Bad etiquette in a popular area. Just my 2c, but most trad climbers would be likely to agree.
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reg
Feb 6, 2007, 8:07 PM
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probably wasn't cool to loose it in front of the team building class. did they cover your back? neither was the other climbers reaction. when i am confronted with that situation (tr's in the way) i just lead around them - i mean do the route and just push them out of the way when they interfere. you should have tried to pull them over so maybe they would not interfere or could you have climbed to the ledge and pulled them up if it came to that. easy enough to put um back and rap down. i do find it obnoxious to see a bunch of lines "taken" when i get to a crag. often i'll use others ropes when invited, but i always chk their anchors. etiquette? i don't know that answer. i think they were blowin smoke about leading taking precedence.
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j_ung
Feb 6, 2007, 8:08 PM
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It's a pretty complex question, actually, and you're likely to hear a lot of conflicting opinions. Obviously, some climbers feel that leading takes precedence over toproping. Maybe in questions of style, but that doesn't negate the fact that you did the work to get there first. However, I don't think it's fair of you to monopolize any single climb for an entire day, especially if it's a popular climb. But then, you were willing to work with them so they could climb it, too. And they were rude. See? Nuances.
There are ways to compromise in such cases. Consider pulling the ropes aside, not down, next time so they can also climb the route in their chosen style without inconveniencing your group. Or, consider enacting a policy of not staying in one place all day. It's helpful to set aside half the day for climbing and half for rappelling -- it introduces some variety to the day and keeps you from hogging routes. Or better yet, find a place to guide that isn't in the guidebook. Even in crowded areas, you ought to be able to find something that fits the bill. First-time climbers don't need pristine stone to have a great experience. When I guided, I spent several days a year wandering the woods looking for cliffline I could use and that wasn't in anybody else's way. I found a whole slew of such areas.
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granite_grrl
Feb 6, 2007, 8:08 PM
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Sticky situation.
I would say in general, first come first serve, but there has to be an understanding between multiple groups of climbers that all want on the same route.
You did good by offering them a ride, but I understand why they may have wanted to lead it instead of TR. I have asked to step in and lead a route that a group was occupying, and to be honest I've only been denied once.
But if you're gracious enough to offer them to climb through they could have either tried to lead the route with your top rope up, or asked to pull your rope but offer to take it back up and set it up for you again. Mind you I have always done this with trad climbs and I'm pretty used to climbing with a tag line while placing gear.
If they were just jerks who wanted you out of the area then they are just jerks, and there's nothing to be done about that.
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dominic7
Feb 6, 2007, 8:12 PM
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You should have rumbled with them. 10 on 2 - you could have totally taken them and think of what powerful team-building exercise that would have been! They would have been talking about it in their conference rooms for years "remember that time we spanked those hippies at that off-site that time?" - "yeah, how come we don't get to go on training sessions like that anymore?"
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dlintz
Feb 6, 2007, 8:15 PM
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dominic7 wrote: You should have rumbled with them. 10 on 2 - you could have totally taken them and think of what powerful team-building exercise that would have been! They would have been talking about it in their conference rooms for years "remember that time we spanked those hippies at that off-site that time?" - "yeah, how come we don't get to go on training sessions like that anymore?"
LOL! Excellent!
d.
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a.a.
Feb 6, 2007, 8:20 PM
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You have priority if you got there first; however, if you were hogging all of the good climbs in an area that would be bad form. One Saturday morning a friend and I went over to climb CS Concerto in the Valley and there was a group that had set up TR’s on the first pitch of every single multi-pitch climb at Manure Pile! Then the leader of the group came over and said he might be able to squeeze us in at some point. I don’t think I was particularly rude, I didn’t demand to get on the climb right then, but I made it clear we were getting on our climb that morning.
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redpoint73
Feb 6, 2007, 8:20 PM
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The most useful rule is "be cool to others". Most of the time, people are reasonable with each other and can work things out w/o having to resort to climbing rules. Even so, there is no "leader takes precedent over TR" rule in any region I have climbed. I can see isolated instances where a team may want to head up a multi-pitch route, and a big group has a TR setup at the first belay point. In that case, it would make sense to let the leader go. But even then, there is no hard and fast rule.
I have seen big groups become a problem at crags. Very often, there are ropes that go unused for long periods of time, which is in bad style. 4 ropes for 10 people is totally reasonable. But even so, with a guided group it almost inevitable that ropes will go idle. Either there will not be enough competent belayers, the clients will want to watch/listen to the guide to pick up tips, or some of the clients will get tired and stop climbing, etc. I've seen it countless times: a big guided group throws up a few ropes, and some of them end up being idle for literally hours while the entire group ends up using 1 or 2 ropes at a time.
I'm not saying this was necessarily true with your group, but its something to be aware of and strive to avoid. Also, the other group may have had a bad experience with big guided groups hogging routes, so maybe they already had some preconceived frustration.
In general, its best to climb the route, then pull your rope and move on as soon as possible. Unfortunately, that philosophy usually doesn't work for commercial/guided/school groups.
Why do you say that pulling the TR rope, then having to put it up would be a hassle? It would be easy as pie. Even if we are talking trad routes: If the other group was doing it leader/follower style, the follower can just trail your rope as he cleans, and put it back on your anchor when he tops out. If the leader intended on cleaning as he lowered, he can just lower off your TR anchor. Then you can just tape the end of your rope to the end of his and pull it through the anchor. Obviously, some of this depends on where the anchor point is. But the moral of the story is that there are plenty of easy methods that would have allowed you to put the TR back up in a matter of a couple minutes.
It doesn't appear that you were in the wrong based on your story. But the other group may have a different perception. In any case, there were a few things you could have done different that may or may not have resulted in a happier ending.
(This post was edited by redpoint73 on Feb 6, 2007, 8:27 PM)
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cintune
Feb 6, 2007, 8:24 PM
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I don't see any nuance. If you had a climber on every rope then they were out of luck, but if you weren't using the ropes you had no right to leave them up just to save your place. Screw that, they had a right to get rude because you were [already] being a dick.
(This post was edited by cintune on Feb 6, 2007, 8:26 PM)
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jamatt
Feb 6, 2007, 8:28 PM
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From the 2004 AMGA TRSM "Best Practice" guidelines:
Reduce the number in your group as much as possible. Plan your trips on weekdays, not weekends.
Only set up the couple of climbs that you are using. Don't set up your climbs for the whole day all at once and monopolize your area. Lead climbers have right of way over top ropes.
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climbsomething
Feb 6, 2007, 8:40 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: Is this a common climber rule?
Based on your post, neither one of you was in the right, nor clearly in the wrong.
I don't subscribe to leaders taking precedence over topropers simply because leading is more badass, especially since you were there first. Still, they clearly wanted to lead, so I can see why offering them the TRs was rebuffed. I don't think that should have really surprised you (did it?).
We know nothing about the crag. Were these single-pitch lines, or the first pitch of multi-pitch lines? What were the anchors like? Bolted? Tree? Easily reached by hiking up and reaching over a lip? Gear only, and limited to the pieces you had already placed? Does this still mean they couldn't have used your anchor set up anyway? Was the anchor such that they couldn't have pulled your rope, led, and trailed your line and replaced it?
Since nobody here was there, and naturally your POV is biased to defend your position, we'll never really know why the attitudes turned south, which is the critical link here.
In general, share the crag. Neither party could end up doing that that day. As such, both parties were probably a little wrong and a little right.
(This post was edited by climbsomething on Feb 6, 2007, 8:40 PM)
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mtnjohn
Feb 6, 2007, 9:08 PM
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I've pulled hanging top opes out of my way before and will again. I you (anyone in your group) is using them or will be SOON I move on or wait. If the rope is left waiting for you to finish other things, I'll pull it, lead the route and offer to trail your rope and reset the TR when we've finished.
Hijacking four routes is pretty rude. It's hard to beleive that's not obvious to everyone.
(This post was edited by mtnjohn on Feb 6, 2007, 9:09 PM)
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jakedatc
Feb 6, 2007, 9:18 PM
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mtnjohn wrote: I've pulled hanging top opes out of my way before and will again. I you (anyone in your group) is using them or will be SOON I move on or wait. If the rope is left waiting for you to finish other things, I'll pull it, lead the route and offer to trail your rope and reset the TR when we've finished. Hijacking four routes is pretty rude. It's hard to beleive that's not obvious to everyone.
I agree. Groups that will be there a long time should let people lead through and replace their TR afterwards. Think... they will be on it for a very short time and you have 3 other lines to play on while they do so. Would you have had to lead the route to put the TR back up again or is this a place thats top accessible? Lead: they trail a rope and put yours back up.. Top: WALK YOUR ASS UP AND DROP YOUR ROPE AGAIN LAZY BASTARD
I would have been pissed at you too..
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olderic
Feb 6, 2007, 9:23 PM
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climbsomething wrote: I don't subscribe to leaders taking precedence over topropers simply because leading is more badass
That's the dead horse that has been kicked ad infintum. That leading doesn't take precedence is probably the prevailing attitude (despite the AMGA suggestion referenced earlier) by the majority of today's folks. But it certainly wasn't the prevailing attitude not that long ago. But "climbing" today caters to the homogonized dumbed down view so I'm not surprised.
One point I would make though regards the land this was done on. It would seem that your's was a commercial use - whoever has jurisdiction - whether it's public or private - probably has established guidelines regarding commercial use. Usually, not always, such guidelines give priority to recreations (over commercial) use.
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d1ll1gaf
Feb 6, 2007, 9:24 PM
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IMHO the first group to get to a climb has priority, even if that group is top-ropping and expects to be there all day (with no unused ropes), with some obvious exceptions:
- If the area has a "No Top Rope" ethic
- The group should not be occupying ALL the climbs at the craig, or even all the climbs of a particular grade.
Politness dictates that if you are going to be on a route all day, give other climbers who want to get up and down it once priority over your group. This could either involve letting the other climbers use your rope (heck if it was me I would even offer to belay) or moving your ropes out of the way so that the the other climbers can lead (simple action, grab rope and walk along sideways until the rope is out of the way).
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Power_Tie
Feb 6, 2007, 9:25 PM
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Well! Some pretty interesting responses, thank you for your perspectives.
First, some background questions. My four ropes were on adjacent climbs. 3 were on faces and designated 'TR only' in the guide and the fourth rope was on a 5.9 crack. All four topropes had bolted anchors. The climbs were all short, about 45' each.
The other climbers wanted to lead the crack climb. In retrospect, it probably would have been possible to pull my top rope to the side, and let them lead on up it. But they were insistent that they had to pull my rope. I feel foolish, but it did not occur to me to let them lead the crack route with my rope, or to pull my rope up to reestablish the top rope after their lead.
Also, none of the top ropes were idle for more than 10 minutes at a time, which I do not feel is unreasonable, as I see climbers sitting below climbs all the time. And I offered to let the other climbers use the top rope while there was actually someone climbing it, if they would just wait until she finished her turn.
I am sorry that things kind of went south when I was confronted with their attitude, that they could just walk right up to climbs we were using, and pull my rope down just because they intended to lead it. That, and they didn't seem to think we belonged there because some of the people it was their first time climbing and were hanging on the rope quite a bit. Like everyone is so great their first time.
But maybe I should not be surprised at this attitude from climbers? Someone has already called me a dick in reply to my question, and 'mtnjohn' just said he'd feel free to walk up to me and pull my rope down without asking. Maybe I will feel free to actually be a dick, since that is the attitude you climbers seem to think is ok.
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lena_chita
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Feb 6, 2007, 9:31 PM
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Gray zone, IMO.
I have been in those situations before, but it never came to rudeness. Solutions that usually work:
If the group has a rope up, but nobody is climbing it, I usually offer to pull it, lead on my rope, and then put their rope back up when I am done. No one has ever objected to that, and plenty of people have offered the same to us.
Sometimes people offer their rope for climbing ,but I'm not too keen to accept that. I don't know hte history of that rope, I prefer to climb with my own rope or the ropes of my friends. But I also do sometimes offer other people a turn on our rope, if the top-rope is up and they want to top-rope, and it is usually accepted, so not everyone is as paranoid about it as I am.
I'm guessing that those were easy(er) and popular climbs that you have occupied.
BUT-- if your people were continuously climbing on those ropes, then the other guys didn't have the right to ask to climb. Most likely though, you had 4 ropes up, but not every one of them was occupied b/c most of your "climbers" were standing around saying that they needed to 'rest some" before climbing again. And THAT gets very annoying.
Esp if the routes you wanted to climb are staked out by a group of 10-- which effectively means, if all 10 of them climb that route, it is going to take most of the day. Realistically for a group of 10 newbies, 3 top-ropes are plenty. If each person gets to do 3 climbs, that's 30 climbs total, more than enough for a day, and it leaves plenty of time for chatting, cheering and team-building.
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cintune
Feb 6, 2007, 9:42 PM
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"Welcome to the employee rock-climbing seminar. You'll learn valuable teamwork skills by doing dangerous things unrelated to your jobs." - Dilbert
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stefanohatari
Feb 6, 2007, 9:42 PM
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Power_Tie wrote: you climbers
I suspect this piece of attitude may be part of the problem.
I lead lots of groups in popular areas for a commercial company, and saw lots of good advice here about how to get along.
One thing to note: many reputable guide services will not allow their guides to share their anchors with other climbers.
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nthusiastj
Feb 6, 2007, 10:22 PM
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dlintz wrote: dominic7 wrote: You should have rumbled with them. 10 on 2 - you could have totally taken them and think of what powerful team-building exercise that would have been! They would have been talking about it in their conference rooms for years "remember that time we spanked those hippies at that off-site that time?" - "yeah, how come we don't get to go on training sessions like that anymore?" LOL! Excellent! d.
Kinda like the rumble scene in "Anchorman".
Yeah, Steve. You should probably find a good safehouse.
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sidepull
Feb 6, 2007, 10:26 PM
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I think people have offered some solutions that may have diffused the situation and for the most part this thread has had a pretty constructive tone.
I've never heard that someone leading takes precedence over toproping - and frankly I find it elitist and seems to have nothing to do with "dumbing down" or homogenizing climbing. I've always practiced a "first come first serve" approach but, I also try to be as nice and accomodating as possible. For example, a lot of times climbers will show up and just stand there like orphaned puppies looking at the route your on. I'm often the one that says "hey, do you guys want to get on this? I've got one more go and then my partner was going to take a burn and then it's yours." Or, I'll approach other climbers and say, "hey, how long do you guys think you'll be on this?" Also, if I know I'm on a popular route I try to be on and off as fast as possible or choose a low traffic time - it's just courtesy. As someone else said, the point is to be cool, be nice, be approachable.
It seems like the OP did most of this. It seems like, had he thought about letting them trail a rope then there wouldn't have been a situation per se. However, this bothers me a bit:
Power_Tie wrote: But maybe I should not be surprised at this attitude from climbers? Someone has already called me a dick in reply to my question, and 'mtnjohn' just said he'd feel free to walk up to me and pull my rope down without asking. Maybe I will feel free to actually be a dick, since that is the attitude you climbers seem to think is ok.
I guess I'm super sympathetic to the OP's position until I see that he seems to have a pretty short fuse. Sure, the internet isn't the real world and this is only a very marginal piece of data, but there are a lot of pent up stereotypes and "me vs. you" attitude displayed in this hyperbolic reaction. Hopefully I'm wrong.
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zeke_sf
Feb 6, 2007, 10:39 PM
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Geez, Mr. Tie, there's your problem; you took a perfectly good thing like climbing and fucked it up by bringing something horrible like work into it.
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