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alxg
Feb 12, 2007, 1:42 AM
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Long story short. I'm a traddey. Was climbing in Arkansas. Had a piece blow. I decked from about 25', well actually landed on my belayer's shoulder then decked (she was ok). Other than bruising, physically I was ok. Got up TR'd the climb I decked on. Got the heebies at the same spot but made the climb. Next weekend went climbing in Oklahoma. Decided to lead a 5.6 that I had led before. Got to about 25', got the heebies BAD. Did the "rock zen" finished the climb. Built my anchor. Brought up the second. Rapped down. And I've never led anything since (2 years now).
Any ideas of how to get out of this "I'm ok to second anything you'll lead, but I don't want too" mind set?
I'm reading a great book called "The Rock Warrior's Way" and I'll lead sport, but not trad 
Would really like to pull my share when my hubby and I do multi-pitch.
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acacongua
Feb 12, 2007, 2:33 AM
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I'm confused ... you haven't lead anything since the accident two years ago, but you'll lead sport?
I broke an ankle on a lead fall and so I TRed for months. Later, I lead routes well below my limit to get accustomed to leading.
Twice, I hurt (scratch that ... wrecked) my ankle bouldering, the second being worse than even the aforementioned break. Right now I'm just climbing up half way and falling or getting on 45 degree walls and landing on pole vault mats to get my confidence back.
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alxg
Feb 12, 2007, 3:03 AM
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sorry about that...yeah, i'll lead 5.6-5.8's sport, even though i can tr 10-11 clean...i told my climbing partner that when we go out to arkansas at the end of the month for some sport climbing i want to get on the sharp end and take some falls, maybe that'll help...i can't boulder 'cause i had a nasty knee surgery 7 months ago and the doc said if i land and compress the area below the knee i'll blow 4 screws out...that doesn't sound like fun to me...
i hope your ankle is healing up!
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happiegrrrl
Feb 12, 2007, 3:25 AM
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Most people suggest leading stuff well below your limit, that you are familiar with.
But I wonder if going out with tow people who you trust implicitly(we all know the difference between those types and the ones we have some reservation on) and doing some mock leads - at the level you feel would be your trad lead limit if there was no head case.
Have the belayer on TR keep just enough slack in the system that you can't feel it. But if you fell it would be an easy TR fall.
Next climb, have the TR a little looser, and next time, loose enough just to save your bacon from ledge/deck if the lead belayer failed(which....they won't. That's why you have those you KNOW got your back in stead of space cadets....).
I don't think leading sport is gonna make a difference on your trad leading head. It's a totally different animal.
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granite_grrl
Feb 12, 2007, 1:26 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: But I wonder if going out with tow people who you trust implicitly(we all know the difference between those types and the ones we have some reservation on) and doing some mock leads - at the level you feel would be your trad lead limit if there was no head case.
You know, that may be a good thinkg to try.
I fell while leading on gear on something I shouldn't have fallen on, hit a ledge which fucked me up (air lifted, breathing tubes, surgery, the whole bit).
Saw a guy leading ice yesterday (doing a bad job I might add) who placed two scerws in 17meters or so (and in chandaliered ice!). Made my stomac flip upside down to just watch him. The idea of my husband leading ice just kills me, I won't even let him tell me about it right now much less watch it.
I hope to maybe get back to leading in the next year or so.....long multi pitch gear routes are my favorote, but I'm a long way from it right now.
Physically it hurts to even hang in a harness, so I won't even be able to belay a leader for a while, but at least I still have the desire. We'll see how this all goes.
(This post was edited by granite_grrl on Feb 12, 2007, 3:17 PM)
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uasunflower
Feb 12, 2007, 3:13 PM
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yeah, it's one thing knowing about the consequences in some abstract way and a totally different one seeing loved ones in the hospital or recovering yourself from lead falls...
that's what the game is about - you have to make your own choices (and there are no easy recipices of the 'get back on lead for dummies' as you can see even from this thread) about getting at it again. It's in your head - and you have to make things clear in your head again - as in yes, i love it enough to risk it again or as in no, i'll just top rope and nevermind what other jerks around can say...
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alxg
Feb 12, 2007, 3:58 PM
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you're right re: the sport vs. trad animal...you don't tend to get "bit" as hard in a sport leader fall...i've put numerous people on simulated leads but haven't done it since an intermediate class about 7 years ago-DUH what a great idea! next time the hubby and i get to go out to the local trad area i know exactly where i will go!!!!!!! THANKS FOR THE ADVICE!
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acacongua
Feb 13, 2007, 5:35 PM
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alxg wrote: sorry about that...yeah, i'll lead 5.6-5.8's sport, even though i can tr 10-11 clean...i told my climbing partner that when we go out to arkansas at the end of the month for some sport climbing i want to get on the sharp end and take some falls, maybe that'll help...i can't boulder 'cause i had a nasty knee surgery 7 months ago and the doc said if i land and compress the area below the knee i'll blow 4 screws out...that doesn't sound like fun to me... i hope your ankle is healing up!
Hahaha ... sometimes when people post suggestions, they get carried away talking about their own injuries as I did. What I"m suggesting is that you do what you know is completely safe and do it for as long as you want. Eventually, you'll want to get back in the game of pushing yourself past all limits - physical and mental. That's what I'm working on with bouldering - I've been injury free on the ankles for over a year and hope to keep it that way.
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gblauer
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Feb 14, 2007, 4:31 PM
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Hey, I will let you know as I get back on the rock and recover my lead head.
take Arno's class. It is relatively inexpensive, very powerful and really helped me change my lead game dramatically. I would, however, talk to him about a trad class, rather than a sport class.
I do know that recovering your lead head takes time and your inner strength will ebb and flow over time. You just have to keep battling every time you climb to keep the demons at bay. Make sure that you warm up sufficiently, feel good about your climbing before you lead. Also, I am a big fan of drilling lead falls. (I know, I just broke my back, but, that doesn't change my mind. My belayer failed me.). I drill on sport and on trad and I take some fairly good sized whippers. (In both cases, I assess the fall consequences BEFORE I fall. when I do this on trad gear, I make sure that I have redundancy in my gear and I always check the gear before I fall again.) These falls help me trust my gear, get my brain in synch with "falling is ok" and it enables me to free my mind as I am climbing. I know that I can fall and be safe, so I can really focus on my climbing.
I know you are frustrated, but, know that if you keep working at it you will succeed!
(This post was edited by gblauer on Feb 14, 2007, 4:34 PM)
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cracklover
Feb 14, 2007, 4:35 PM
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acacongua wrote: What I'm suggesting is that you do what you know is completely safe and do it for as long as you want. Eventually, you'll want to get back in the game of pushing yourself past all limits - physical and mental.
I think that's, by far, the best advice. Mock leading will just mock you for your inability to lead! If you mock-lead something near your limit, that *will not* make you able to lead it. What you really need to do is convince yourself that you're pretty safe at climbing stuff, and being on a TR, however loose, simply won't tell you anything about leading.
You said yourself that you fell on something where you feel you shouldn't have. What happened? Were you on easy terrain where you weren't placing much gear because you felt solid? If so, what you need to do is get back on easy terrain, maybe even easier! But sew it up, so that you've pretty much always got a TR. That's how beginners around here learn to lead, and that's what you need to do - learn to lead again. But just as no beginner should push themselves to lead when they're not ready, neither should you. There comes a time for most beginners when they're just not satisfied anymore with seconding, and they want to take up the sharp end. It sounds like you're approaching that point. Enjoy it, it's a magical time (even if it is the second time for you!)
Cheers,
GO
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seanhabgood
Feb 14, 2007, 5:19 PM
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Go climb with someone you can trust to belay you and like to climb with. Then start out slow and work back up to leading the hard stuff. It sounds like your head is in a good place. Lead climbing is like following with more fear of falling as the fall distance is greater. Good luck and let your self and go for it. Sean
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granite_grrl
Feb 14, 2007, 8:15 PM
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cracklover wrote: Mock leading will just mock you for your inability to lead! If you mock-lead something near your limit, that *will not* make you able to lead it.
It depends on what you want out of the mock leading. I think you can get confidence at your ability to place gear while hanging out.
When I get to the point where I'm thinking of leading again mock leading will give me a bit of the leading mind set while still giving me a safety net in case I start to panick. I think panicking while half way up a climb would be a bad thing, no matter how well you can sew it up. Someone in a panick is liable to do stupid things.
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happiegrrrl
Feb 14, 2007, 9:08 PM
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Cracklover - I noticed your comments and - while of course we know the mock lead isn't the same as leading - I think it might be something to consider in conjunction and/or instead of the true leads on easy sew-ups.
I don't have experience having to regain a lead head; mine's still in development! And I am snail-pacing myself, about stepping up in small increments. So far, so good!
But I have heard a few people who lost lead confidence, and I have to say I have sensed some frustration in their stories. Seems the "demons" are there, no matter.
That made me think.....Could it possibly be because of some inherant self-shame about "having to be on the baby swing?" Could it be....the so-easy routes are "boring" to the person who "knows" them moves are cake? Could that combination have - sometimes - a negative impact instead of the positive?
I don't know! I honestly just thought of the "mock lead at your wished-for level" at the moment I wrote the post.... My thinking was that - being at a lead that you "need" to be focused in order not to fall, while having the TR there(tight at first, then loosening) might be beneficial because the feeling of success could be more prevalent. I mean....how often do we hear the "yeah, but it was only" (a low number) - which is not an affirmation; in fact quite the opposite!
While for sure, the same person might say "yeah, but I had a TR" - I wonder if the sensation of "success" on getting through a harder line(with TR) wouldn't outweight the sensation of success on getting through the easy line(sans TR).
Just wondering....
This might be a good topic for General conversation - I'd be interested to hear what other's who have found themselves regaining lead confidence went through ND HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT THIS CONCEPT.
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happiegrrrl
Feb 14, 2007, 9:12 PM
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I just had a dash of brilliance! This MUST be studied - extensively - in the field.... Under various conditions, in various climbing areas.
Of course, our study participants should be paid for their time, and those doing the study should be reimbursed for various expenses...travel, food, lodging, materials and fees.....
Do you think we can get the government to fund it???
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iamthewallress
Feb 14, 2007, 9:28 PM
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When I was in your situation, I just kept taking the sharp end on well protected climbs and backed off when I was too scared to think about the climbing (requires a patient partner who can take over for you). I cried and freaked out a lot. A mix of climbing w/ my boyfriend who was willing to let me process some of my emotional issues, and also climbing with people w/ whom I'd have felt like a jackass crying at the base of a 5.0 (although I did anyway a couple of times) helped me push through and gain the experience that I needed to earn some reliable comfort.
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