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olderic
Feb 13, 2007, 6:06 PM
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I recently did a 23 pitch sport route (Time Wave Zero at the Potrero) with my son. He used a Gri-Gri and I used an ATC. We traded barbs the whole way up as to which was more appropriate. When it came to simu-rapping 23 pitches I have to admit that the lad was right.
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redpoint73
Feb 13, 2007, 6:37 PM
Post #27 of 56
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sspssp wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: The grigri is a wonderful device but is not for the inexperienced. And which device would you want an inexerienced belayer belaying you with? 
Does an experienced climber count as a device?
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sspssp
Feb 13, 2007, 7:40 PM
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redpoint73 wrote: sspssp wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: The grigri is a wonderful device but is not for the inexperienced. And which device would you want an inexerienced belayer belaying you with? Does an experienced climber count as a device?
Hip belay?
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sspssp
Feb 13, 2007, 7:43 PM
Post #30 of 56
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cracklover wrote: olderic wrote: I recently did a 23 pitch sport route (Time Wave Zero at the Potrero) with my son. He used a Gri-Gri and I used an ATC. We traded barbs the whole way up as to which was more appropriate. When it came to simu-rapping 23 pitches I have to admit that the lad was right. I'm curious as to why? I recently did my first simulrap, and I was certainly more comfortable with my auto-locking device than my partner was with her tube style one. But I think that was mostly because of the midair shenannigans that, um, happened.
It is nice to have a device that locks off when you want to untangle a rope while rapping. Grigri for simul-rapping is great for this (the old Cinch is a pain for rapping but I have high hopes for the new one).
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redpoint73
Feb 13, 2007, 7:47 PM
Post #31 of 56
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sspssp wrote: redpoint73 wrote: sspssp wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: The grigri is a wonderful device but is not for the inexperienced. And which device would you want an inexerienced belayer belaying you with? Does an experienced climber count as a device? Hip belay?
Sure, why not?
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olderic
Feb 13, 2007, 8:02 PM
Post #32 of 56
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sspssp wrote: cracklover wrote: olderic wrote: I recently did a 23 pitch sport route (Time Wave Zero at the Potrero) with my son. He used a Gri-Gri and I used an ATC. We traded barbs the whole way up as to which was more appropriate. When it came to simu-rapping 23 pitches I have to admit that the lad was right. I'm curious as to why? I recently did my first simulrap, and I was certainly more comfortable with my auto-locking device than my partner was with her tube style one. But I think that was mostly because of the midair shenannigans that, um, happened. It is nice to have a device that locks off when you want to untangle a rope while rapping. Grigri for simul-rapping is great for this (the old Cinch is a pain for rapping but I have high hopes for the new one).
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the_climber
Feb 13, 2007, 10:26 PM
Post #33 of 56
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sspssp wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: The grigri is a wonderful device but is not for the inexperienced. And which device would you want an inexerienced belayer belaying you with?
I have been dropped by more people using a GriGri than I care to admit. However, I have never been dropped by someone using a Tube or Plate type device. I realy don't give a hoot what type of belay device someone uses, so long as they are a good belayer; that means they are well versed in many situations and have a good working knowledge of the fact that all equipment has it's limitations, and that opperator error and poor communication is THE cause of 99% of accidents related to belaying. It also means that they are attentive, and NEVER forget that it is Their responsibility to do the work, not the belay device. Remember Kids, that break hand still never leaves that rope regardless of wether or not the device is "designed" to lockoff.
a post I made in another thread wrote: Devices such as the GriGri and Cinch are great additions to the existing gear, but in my oppinion should only be used be those experianced enough to know that they still have the job to do, not the device. I could see myself using such a device on a long belay while aid climbing where even the most attentive of belayers could unintentionally let their minds wander, but for me there is no replacement for good belay skills with a tube/plate type device, and the experiance gain from years of climbing. There is also no replacement for proper and clear communication. I'm not that old yet, but remember when half the people you climbed with had stitchplates, almost everone could whip together a biner break, and a GriGri was something no-one had ever heard of. It is truely a shame that because a lot of people thought that these devices were a 'short cut' to good belaying such controversy over their use seems to be a daily topic. This especially when the real problem has been a lax approach to belaying in general by many. Belaying is one of the most important parts of the climbing system, but unfortunatly seems to recive far less respect than it is due. |
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cracklover
Feb 13, 2007, 11:57 PM
Post #34 of 56
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the_climber wrote: I have been dropped by more people using a GriGri than I care to admit. However, I have never been dropped by someone using a Tube or Plate type device.
So how do you explain that? Are you less cautious about checking belaying habits when hooking up with an unknown belayer with a gri-gri? If so, that would suggest that you yourself have unrealistic expectations of the gri-gri.
Or does the gym where you climb insist on gri-gris? If so, that hardly proves that one is any safer than the other - it just shows that clueless gymbies are clueless gymbies.
Please advise,
GO
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the_climber
Feb 14, 2007, 12:44 AM
Post #35 of 56
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cracklover wrote: the_climber wrote: I have been dropped by more people using a GriGri than I care to admit. However, I have never been dropped by someone using a Tube or Plate type device. So how do you explain that? Are you less cautious about checking belaying habits when hooking up with an unknown belayer with a gri-gri? If so, that would suggest that you yourself have unrealistic expectations of the gri-gri. Or does the gym where you climb insist on gri-gris? If so, that hardly proves that one is any safer than the other - it just shows that clueless gymbies are clueless gymbies. Please advise, GO
It more or less shows that many of the noobs these days are being taught how to belay and use GriGri's, and other such devices, wrong. Most noobs I climb with are being taught how to belay by me, and only with a tube style belay device. This way I know they are learning correctly. I more or less put potential belayers through a belay test before trusting them regardless of whether I'm in a gym or outside. Lessons learned the hard way you might say. Auto-locking belay devices tend to encourage a lax approach to belaying, especially for noobs. They tend to put trust in the device before they develop trust in themselves as belayers. So in that sence the blame could be assigned to the nature of the device, but moreso to ingnorance. The rest of the blame is upon those teaching noobs how to use these devices. Most people I see teaching how to use a GriGri have no real clue as to how it was designed to work. Add to this disterbing trends such as many people teaching a hand over hand methood of taking in slack... it's a recipe for disaster. Think about how bad habits translate to new belayer when they use ATC's.
Whereas, most people teaching or using a tube or plate style belay device typically place a little more importance on 'their' roll as belayers (speeking mostly of noobs, but not entirely). Most Gym instructors I see teaching how to use ATC's ensure they instill a great importance that the decive won't do the work for you and that the belaying is up to the belayer and not the device. They drive home a seriousness about belaying that they do not with a GriGri.... after all the grigri catches the climber for you.... right? Whereas the same instructors are raving about how a GriGri locks off and does sooooo much for you when they teach a noob how to belay with said device.
All accept one of my being dropped by a GriGri experiances has been while being lowered. I'm heavier than most climbers and it has been a situation where a noob panics and pulls the lever MORE and holds on less. I have been dropped on lead... I can only suspect, but my guess is the individual in question was still holding down the device to feed rope and was too much of a idiot to a) let go of the device so it could work as designed, and b) to keep his break hand to the rope. Bottom line is that the GriGri should not be tought as a Basic device. You should have developed proper belay skills prior to learning the ins and outs of them. I don't dislike them, in fact I think they are great ADDITIONS to the gear that is out there.
I'm taking this from another thread in the Accidents & Injuries forum:
In reply to: The worst crime ever perpetrated against the grigri was when someone made the assumption that they are good for beginners because they are automatic. NOT! Climb safe
cracklover wrote: Or does the gym where you climb insist on gri-gris?
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deadhorse
Feb 14, 2007, 9:31 PM
Post #36 of 56
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Simul-rapping? Is that when theres a climber on each end of the rope, rapping at the same time? If so, ever get one guy to drop real fast then jerk to a stop so the other guy goes up? haha unsafe i know, but i'd have to try it once.
I agree with the long raps w/ skinny ropes. Or static rope, my static has NO grab in my ATC and I've gotten pretty worried when my hand cramps rapping down off cliffs. I just really REALLY wish there was a twin rope capable autolocking device!! (come on product developers, I know you read here!) I have an 8mm ice twin that my gri gri locks on, but thats pretty sketchy.
Sport climbs that are long- you can't really go wrong with either (i mean, not as your experienced)
Shorter sport climbs I don't like the gri gri because i keep more tension, and i'm (personally) not so hot att feeding i guess.
trad- atc (or xp or guide or reverso)
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bobruef
Feb 14, 2007, 10:02 PM
Post #38 of 56
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Davey wrote: I really like the GriGri for top roping on a long day. But the GgiGri is to hard to feed out...
It gets easier when you learn how to use it properly.
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becker513
Feb 15, 2007, 3:22 AM
Post #39 of 56
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i suppose one could alway opt for a Cinch
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fearlessclimber
Feb 18, 2007, 2:07 AM
Post #40 of 56
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i prefer a grigri for belaying aid pitches
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miavzero
Feb 18, 2007, 4:46 AM
Post #41 of 56
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bobruef wrote: Davey wrote: I really like the GriGri for top roping on a long day. But the GgiGri is to hard to feed out... It gets easier when you learn how to use it properly.
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notapplicable
Feb 18, 2007, 5:17 PM
Post #42 of 56
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GriGri's have there place (although I doubt I will ever own one) but for some reason if my belayer is using one it sketches me out just a little. Kind of like top rope soloing with an ascender, I'm always just a little bit hesitant to weight the thing, I know I'm being neurotic but I cant help it. Also I think I'm to cheap to get a GriGri, they just strike me as being superfluous. To each there own.
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zeke_sf
Feb 18, 2007, 5:31 PM
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How much are people hangdogging? I've belayed people who've hung out for extended periods of time with my ATC and it has never been a problem.
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perionychium
Feb 18, 2007, 5:46 PM
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I suppose I am going to be one of the few to advocate the grigri. Personally, it depends on what type of climbing you are doing, if I was on trad, the reverso would be my weapon, but when it comes to lead climbing, I like my grigri more due solely to the autolocking feature. Be aware: the grigri may cause sloppy belaying, but just treat the grigri as if you were belaying with ATC.
In the end: it comes down to personal preference and to which device you feel more comfortable using.
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perionychium
Feb 18, 2007, 9:21 PM
Post #46 of 56
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Ha! The snow is starting to get to me. Like, a lot.
But, regardless, I think you misinterpreted my statement. I WOULD use a grigri on lead. My reverso is reserved for trad.
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kriso9tails
Feb 18, 2007, 9:43 PM
Post #47 of 56
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zeke_sf wrote: How much are people hangdogging? I've belayed people who've hung out for extended periods of time with my ATC and it has never been a problem.
Int's not an issue of it being a problem; it's an issue of what's more comfortable.
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patto
Feb 18, 2007, 11:11 PM
Post #48 of 56
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Gri gri has its place. Some people love it for all leading especially hangdogging sport climbing. Personally I use my reverso for everything.
When I take climbing noobs up the cliff I usually try to give them a gri-gri to belay with. I makes it easier for them and safer for me. Though I would eventually get them to belay me with a tube device so they can learn to belay properly.
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drfelatio
Feb 18, 2007, 11:27 PM
Post #49 of 56
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kriso9tails wrote: zeke_sf wrote: How much are people hangdogging? I've belayed people who've hung out for extended periods of time with my ATC and it has never been a problem. Int's not an issue of it being a problem; it's an issue of what's more comfortable.
Agreed. It's not that it's a problem, its just that it gets a bit tiring after a while. If you're using an ATC and your climber is hangdogging, have them clip directly into a bolt using a sling girth hitched to their harness. That way you won't have to bear their weight anymore.
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drfelatio
Feb 18, 2007, 11:38 PM
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perionychium wrote: Ha! The snow is starting to get to me. Like, a lot. But, regardless, I think you misinterpreted my statement. I WOULD use a grigri on lead. My reverso is reserved for trad.
I get what you're saying, but your terminology is confusing. The way you've worded things, you've made it sound like lead climbing isn't a part of trad climbing and that is not true.
Perhaps you mean you'd use the Gri-Gri for SPORT climbing and you'd use the Reverso for trad. Both styles involve lead climbing.
To further your point, I'd say that I wouldn't use the Gri-Gri anytime you have a multi-pitch route, regardless of whether that is sport or trad. Why carry up a Gri-Gri when you're going to need an ATC-like device to rappel anyway? For single-pitch cragging, though, it doesn't really matter which device you use as you most likely won't be belaying a second from above.
(This post was edited by drfelatio on Feb 18, 2007, 11:39 PM)
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