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pizza
Feb 26, 2007, 3:31 PM
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I am a big guy and finding that when I weigh my figure-8's, they can be a real pain to untie. At one point a gym employee came and helped me out - he had to go back and get a screwdriver to loosen the gym's rope!
Anyway, I'd like to avoid this by using a double bowline or yosemite bowline instead. my question:
do gyms typically allow this?
If the answer is "yes", fine..
if the answer is "sometimes": since I feel more than comfortable from a safety standpoint, I am inclined to go with the "better to ask forgiveness than permission" philosophy.. especially since its likely nobody will say anything - and if they do, at least it'll be civil, like this:
"hey man, we require you guys use f-8s when tying in..."
"oh, ok. didn't know. sorry about that."
my gym seems pretty lax about at least one other rule: even though there are signs posted around saying you must use a spotter when bouldering, most of the time people don't.. so I really don't think it'll be a big deal if they're not allowed. but then again, I don't want anybody to cause a scene.. so would I be asking for trouble by not asking if they allow double-bowlines to tie in?
if the answer is "never", then i guess we can keep using the occasional screwdriver.
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vegastradguy
Feb 26, 2007, 3:40 PM
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not entirely sure. i suspect that some gyms may not simply because the knot is more difficult than an 8 to inspect.
your best bet is, of course, to ask the gym owner.
that said, if you use a yosemite finish on your fig-8, and dress the knot well, you shouldnt have too much trouble loosening the knot.
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tisar
Feb 26, 2007, 3:45 PM
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Don't know about the traditions in NY gyms. But if you're not allowed the bowline, try the f-8 with a Yosemite finish and do not pull the last strand into the knot completely. that'll leave a loop easy to pull out and the knot is loose now .
Would be easier to show with a picture, but I think you'll work it out.
- Daniel
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musicman1586
Feb 26, 2007, 4:06 PM
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I don't know about what your gym will think, but from a personal standpoint weighing all that I've read and learned myself, going with a double bowline for a tie-in knot is a dangerous idea. This has been discussed in numerous other threads so you can go look it up yourself, but a double bowline can and does loosen up on itself. I'm sure some people will chime in saying that that's not true, or that if you back it up then you don't have to worry about it, but I've heard enough horror stories to not find out for myself if it works and/or what method of backing it up really stops it from coming loose. Just my two cents, you are going to be in the gym which likely means that the routes will be pretty short, so there may not be enough time for the knot to work itself loose, just felt like getting that out there though.
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redpoint73
Feb 26, 2007, 4:33 PM
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The majority of gyms I have been to only allow a figure-8, and sometimes only w. a double fisherman backup. This is likely due to the fact that most gym employees couldn't tie or check a bowline to save their life. Also so morons don't tie in with some made-up granny knot . . . which does happen!
Most gym rules are seldom enforced with any regularity. If you are a competent climber, the employees likely won't harass you anyway. If they do, you can politely explain to them why you are using a different knot. Or you can ask the owner, as others have suggested. If the gym knows you as a regular customer, and competent climber, then the management will likely allow it if you ask.
I constantly violate gym rules with my loose chalk, Fig-8 w. Yosemite finish, and not wearing my lead pass (acts worse than murder, for sure) and I have not been bugged once by the staff.
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zeke_sf
Feb 26, 2007, 4:49 PM
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redpoint73 wrote: I constantly violate gym rules with my loose chalk, Fig-8 w. Yosemite finish, and not wearing my lead pass (acts worse than murder, for sure) and I have not been bugged once by the staff.
Ah man, now you've done gone turned this into a chalk thread! That's worse than the anti-dog threads! You're gonna get all those nimrods who swear they use nothing to dry their hands but forest moss ecologically gathered by high Wiccan priests on all hollows eve.
(This post was edited by zeke_sf on Feb 26, 2007, 4:50 PM)
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cracklover
Feb 26, 2007, 5:36 PM
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redpoint73 wrote: The majority of gyms I have been to only allow a figure-8, and sometimes only w. a double fisherman backup. This is likely due to the fact that most gym employees couldn't tie or check a bowline to save their life. Also so morons don't tie in with some made-up granny knot . . . which does happen! Most gym rules are seldom enforced with any regularity. If you are a competent climber, the employees likely won't harass you anyway. If they do, you can politely explain to them why you are using a different knot. Or you can ask the owner, as others have suggested. If the gym knows you as a regular customer, and competent climber, then the management will likely allow it if you ask. I constantly violate gym rules with my loose chalk, Fig-8 w. Yosemite finish, and not wearing my lead pass (acts worse than murder, for sure) and I have not been bugged once by the staff.
Ditto. Oh, and I use the double-bowline with a double-fisherman's backup when leading. I like the tail getting tucked down rather than up, keeps the rope clean and the tail out of the way.
Edited to add: I don't use loose chalk in the gym, because it gets in the air, it makes a mess, and personally, I don't need that much chalk. I've no judgement of others - your choice, so long as you clean up your mess when you spill.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 26, 2007, 5:40 PM)
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redpoint73
Feb 26, 2007, 5:49 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: redpoint73 wrote: I constantly violate gym rules with my loose chalk, Fig-8 w. Yosemite finish, and not wearing my lead pass (acts worse than murder, for sure) and I have not been bugged once by the staff. Ah man, now you've done gone turned this into a chalk thread! That's worse than the anti-dog threads! You're gonna get all those nimrods who swear they use nothing to dry their hands but forest moss ecologically gathered by high Wiccan priests on all hollows eve.
I was more trying to bait the rabid pro- and anti-chalk ball advocates to start a cat fight with each other.
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8flood8
Feb 26, 2007, 5:55 PM
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while initially, i thought this would be at least a t2
i'll go ahead and go out on a limb.
just tell those fuckers i gave you a pass if they give you any shit.
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pizza
Feb 26, 2007, 7:07 PM
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musicman1586 wrote: from a personal standpoint weighing all that I've read and learned myself, going with a double bowline for a tie-in knot is a dangerous idea.
My guess is that a correctly-tied bowline is more safer than people give it credit for, and minor mistakes in the knot are why you sometimes hear about it coming loose. A bowline where the working end comes out on the inside, for example, is much stronger than one where it comes out on the outside.
In any case, when tying in I'd think I'd usually go for the yosemite finish and then back it up with a double-fisherman, which I like better than a double. Or I can do both. but from a safety standpoint, I feel very comfortable with all three options (double, yosemite, both)...
(This post was edited by pizza on Feb 26, 2007, 11:40 PM)
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zeke_sf
Feb 26, 2007, 7:09 PM
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cracklover wrote: Edited to add: I don't use loose chalk in the gym, because it gets in the air, it makes a mess, and personally, I don't need that much chalk. I've no judgement of others - your choice, so long as you clean up your mess when you spill. GO
I was a chalk baller in the gym, but I've gone back to loose. Like you I really don't need much chalk, but in my case it's more of a retaliatory measure. I have a couple partners who use a plethora of that Bison chalk and it's always getting in my eyes. So now I use the same shit! I'm pretty comfortable with my passive aggression.
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docburner
Feb 27, 2007, 1:28 AM
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Most gyms don't allow it. Try this instead (note I use a bowline and not this and get yelled at sometimes)
tie figure 8, put rope through harness like normal, then put it through the harness again so it goes through the tie in points twice. Then rethread the figure 8 followed by the yosemite finish (probably dont' even need it)
I have heard that this helps a great deal, but probably increases wear on your harness.
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rockguide
Mar 10, 2007, 6:23 AM
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docburner wrote: Most gyms don't allow it. Try this instead (note I use a bowline and not this and get yelled at sometimes) tie figure 8, put rope through harness like normal, then put it through the harness again so it goes through the tie in points twice. Then rethread the figure 8 followed by the yosemite finish (probably dont' even need it) I have heard that this helps a great deal, but probably increases wear on your harness.
Follow the rules of the gym.
Yes, the bowline is safe - especially for a short term tie in like sport climbing or gym climbing (I find the bowline works loose over time on a multipitch). If the gym permits it, ensure your partner knows how to inspect it and THIS KNOT REQUIRES A BACK UP KNOT
A backthreaded eight works well too.
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jt512
Mar 10, 2007, 6:49 AM
Post #16 of 17
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pizza wrote: Anyway, I'd like to avoid this by using a double bowline or yosemite bowline instead. my question: do gyms typically allow this?
I've never been to a gym that allowed a bowline, and I've never been to one that's caught me using one.
Jay
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rgold
Mar 10, 2007, 9:55 PM
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I've been to two gyms that have no problem with bowlines.
Personally, I've been using 'em for almost fifty years now; just never bothered to switch over to the eight. You don't need more than a single bowline, but I do think the so-called Yosemite finish plus a double overhand backup should be considered essential.
By the way, different sources call different things the Yosemite finish. For example, the photo of the Yosemite finish in the current R&I "Gear and Safety Guide" does not correspond to what I've been doing all these years.
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Usually gyms are pretty strict about things like that, so I wouldn't hold your breath on that count. I've also used carabiners to help get knots undone in the past, but if yours are really cinched down, the screwdriver might be better. 
