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Tree_wrangler
Feb 27, 2007, 5:46 PM
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Hi all,
I've been eyeing a large "amphitheatre-like" canyon for a Tyrolean traverse. Actually, I've got my eye on about 5 side canyons off the main river canyon.
Can anyone tell me what the maximum distance is for a Tyrolean? I.e., how many ropes can be safely joined from anchor to anchor? Some of the smaller canyons could probably be done with 1 or 2, but the real prize is pretty darn wide.
I have both static and dynamic lines. Right now, I'm assuming that I'll be weighting the static lines for traverse, and probably clipping into a dynamic backup, since I'm a family man.
Thanks in advance.
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majid_sabet
Feb 27, 2007, 6:36 PM
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How far apart are these two anchors ?
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Tree_wrangler
Feb 27, 2007, 6:56 PM
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Well, I'll be using large trees as my anchors or possibly a newly placed bolt anchor of my choosing. So what that means is that I can "cut the corner" of the amphitheatre to shorten the distance a great deal if need be. I.e., the canyon is narrower where the waterfall enters it and it continues to widen as it approaches the main river canyon.
For "the prize" though, at max distance, I'll take a WAG (Wild-Ass-Guess) that it might be as much as 800'. I can make the traverse less than that, but I'm hoping to set the lines at a maximum exposure (distance, height) while still maintaining a strong margin of safety.
If the physics of the operation allow for greater distance, I might set it longer, but the farther the traverse, the longer it will take to set it (days).
Does that help?
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majid_sabet
Feb 27, 2007, 7:32 PM
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800 feet ? did I see this correctly
are you setting it up as tyrolean" V " or a stright line 800 feet apart ?
how big is this tree ? what is the max load weight in the center of this 800 feet rope ?
how many ropes are you going to use for your main ?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 27, 2007, 7:35 PM)
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deadhorse
Feb 27, 2007, 7:48 PM
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I've never done one with I joined ropes together but i guess it wouldn't weaken the system much... but it might be tricky to get past the knots when youre traversing.
I did a 150' in a similiar situation, it was a gorge with a mouth of a waterfall. You can buy static in huge single pieces (200m) so that might be the way to go. Have you figured out how you're going to run it? If it's wooded than you probably wont be able to hand-run the line to the far side. If that's the case, you need to be able to get to the bottom of the canyon, and also know how deep it is. My gorge was 150' wide, and 100 deep, and it took an extra 140' (total 290') to get the line up.
you can back up with dynamics, ( as long as you have them on both sides, but that's twice as much dynamic required as static. Also, if it does blow the static you'll A. be going for a REALLY long ride, B. Be in a precarious position in terms of escaping the system. Just make sure you got your bases covered. PM me if you want to know any of the specifics/pics of my tyro.
On top of being completely worthwhile, and one of the most memorable experiences of last year, it was without a doubt the scariest thing i have ever done.
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epoch
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Feb 27, 2007, 8:01 PM
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If you are really up to it, you can order an 800' to 1000' spool of both dynamic and static lines, so you won't have to pass a knot in your system. This would allow you a bunch of room to play with on many ideas.
I have a 600' spool tucked away at my parents place for a tyrolean near where they are at.
If you are really die-hard get some cable, then distance won't be as much a factor, though you'll need different hardware for the wire rope.
(To add my bit)
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Tree_wrangler
Feb 27, 2007, 9:03 PM
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In reply to: Have you figured out how you're going to run it? If it's wooded than you probably wont be able to hand-run the line to the far side. If that's the case, you need to be able to get to the bottom of the canyon, and also know how deep it is.
I had planned on walking the line along the rim, which would work for at least a short distance. But yes, it is wooded, and that will pose problems.
I've also got a compound bow with a fishing-reel attachment. You fire the line, follow it with thin perlon haul-cord, and then I can follow that with real rope. But, I can probably only fire it about 200-300', tops. Using it, it's possible that I could shoot and reshoot, to leapfrog the end of the line around the rim.
The depth of the "canyon" is 272' at it's shortest height (right under the falls). The canyon floor drops off rapidly as you move downslope. I've only got 4 60-70 meter static lines, and I can't afford more right this second, so I'll assume that I'm using what I've got.
In fact, I'll assume that I'm going to use the 2 New England static 1/2" lines that I've got. They probably have a working load of 10,000 lbs, but it might be as low as 7,000 lbs. I'm going to assume 7,000 to be on the safe side.
The plan is to straight-line it. I assume that the Tyrolean V decreases anchor loads, but that's not the plan right now.
As far as the dynamic back-up, I was planning on fixing that as a straight line as well, but without a static load on it unless the static line fails. I have a few options for clipping in to it....namely, I could use a biner/prusik or a pulley/prusik, or a Silent Partner, or a small Gibbs camming ascender. In theory, if the static line fails, then my weight loads the dynamic line without any significant shock, and I won't go for a ride.
Assuming I'm using two lines, then the two dynamic lines are both 10.5 mm. Let's assume they can both handle 7KN, which is less then they're actually rated. I have a third 9.8 mm dynamic line that could conceivably come into play, but I can't think of how....
(This post was edited by Tree_wrangler on Feb 27, 2007, 9:45 PM)
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Tree_wrangler
Feb 27, 2007, 9:09 PM
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In reply to: how big is this tree ?
I can choose virtually any tree I want, so long as the ropes reach and can be manipulated to that point. Knowing that, I'm hoping to use 4-5' diameter trees. Know, though, that tree size is only a moderate estimation of tree strength, so I'll pick a 2' tree over a 4' tree that shows potential evidence of heart-rot.
In any case, if I fix the rope around the tree at ground level, the forces I generate will be negligible to the tree (I won't be picking any little sticks).
Originally, I considered anchoring each end of the rope about 100' up a couple of old-growth trees. If I'm shortening the distance of the traverse significantly (like down to 180' or so), I may still do so.
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cintune
Feb 27, 2007, 9:12 PM
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A double cable rig is better than rope. Passing knots is a bitch. You own the land?
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majid_sabet
Feb 27, 2007, 9:44 PM
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cintune wrote: A double cable rig is better than rope. Passing knots is a bitch. You own the land?
If you ask any rigger, they will tell you that Tyrolean is most dangerous system of all and you must do your homework very well. First; you need some solid anchor, may be even backing few trees back to back. Your rope weight (assuming 11 mm static) for 800 footer will be near 60 lbs.
Having a pig in the middle of this 800 feet distance will put so much tensions on the anchors and every thing else in the middle especially your rope. You need some big MAMA JAMA 5:1+ rigging to take the slack of this 800 footer unless you are going to use the winch out of your jeep to pull.
If this was my job, I would buy steel cable spool (2 set) run them and use another two 800 footer dynamic for directional and tie them in the middle to your pulley and fix both 800 footer via 2 set of prussic to the different set of anchor. if for any reasons, sh*t hits the fan and main cable fails, your 4 prussic ( 2 on each side of the canyon)should lock the 2 dynamic rope but there is no grantee cause falling on 400 feet of dynamic rope ( x 30% stretch) you may deck if your vertical distance is only 250 feet.
Just do some calculation first or may be set up one from a shorter distance to see how it goes and play it safe.
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scrapedape
Feb 27, 2007, 10:48 PM
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Tree_wrangler, don't forget to account for the loss of strength due to your knots.
Majid, can you explain what you are saying any more clearly, please?
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majid_sabet
Feb 27, 2007, 11:09 PM
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scrapedape wrote: Tree_wrangler, don't forget to account for the loss of strength due to your knots. Majid, can you explain what you are saying any more clearly, please?
[URL=http://imageshack.us]
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Feb 28, 2007, 8:39 AM)
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lemon_boy
Feb 27, 2007, 11:11 PM
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if i remember correctly, some dudes set up a tyrolean between castleton tower and the rectory back in the late 90's. that'd be a hell of a tyrolean.
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Tree_wrangler
Feb 27, 2007, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: Tree_wrangler, don't forget to account for the loss of strength due to your knots.
Good point. I won't.
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deadhorse
Feb 28, 2007, 12:19 AM
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I don't think you need to think TOO much about the reduction in strength inherited from joining ropes because it's not cumulative- whether you use one rope all the way across or 10, you've still got the strength reduction of the most obtrusive (and only that one) knot. Your going to knot with one line, so the strength reduction comes into play in both systems, and unless you REALLY know how to haul that slack it shouldnt be too bad.
What I was saying about taking a ride on the dynamic is trickier than that- It's the whole vector force table that comes into play with low angle 2 point anchors. you've got to calculate the angle your line will be with you on it (BEFORE doing it) to know how far you'd drop if the dynamic comes into play. you've got to get to 120 degrees before it's [only] 100% of your weight on each anchors (force is still doubled from vertical) and that's where 30% should happen.
A bow could help- but in my experience (my gorge was heavily wooded, right to the edge) It was impossible to walk the line to the other side.
I used that same petzl pulley that someone else showed, it's nice.
Have you decided what kind of rigging your going to use to tension the system? I'm not trying to underestimate you or anything- but on my comparatively small (150 across) tyro it took two people and a 'military transport knot' (i don't know the other name) to get it to an acceptable tension, and it was still a steep enough anlgle that it was hard to get off it. Think about making one side alot higher, and exiting on the opposite side of where you start.
I hope it comes together for you! we're all behind you
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deadhorse
Feb 28, 2007, 12:25 AM
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oh yeah, also- for some inspiration- remember osman's 1200 ft jump? his tyro was HUGE on that. It was a V tyro and he jugged out of it.
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al_piner
Feb 28, 2007, 12:58 AM
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cintune : It looks like someone is about to lose a finger in that picture !!!
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cintune
Feb 28, 2007, 1:11 AM
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Heh, that was just on the launch platform, no worries there.
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scrapedape
Feb 28, 2007, 1:38 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: scrapedape wrote: Tree_wrangler, don't forget to account for the loss of strength due to your knots. Majid, can you explain what you are saying any more clearly, please? Sure I could do that, just visit Tom's website and click on Highline Drop-Testing http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/
Thanks. I was talking more about the specific rigging system you described, but the videos just show the general principle.
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majid_sabet
Feb 28, 2007, 2:14 AM
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scrapedape wrote: majid_sabet wrote: scrapedape wrote: Tree_wrangler, don't forget to account for the loss of strength due to your knots. Majid, can you explain what you are saying any more clearly, please? Sure I could do that, just visit Tom's website and click on Highline Drop-Testing http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/ Thanks. I was talking more about the specific rigging system you described, but the videos just show the general principle.
I would love to see this tyrol that far via dynamic rope. personally, I do not think he would ever make it to the other side and it is going to be a major "V" with min 100 feet of drop.I am going to guess even with static , he would drop min 30 feet of more in the middle .
Any one else wants to guess on how far he would drop in the middle if he uses 800 feet of static ?
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cintune
Feb 28, 2007, 2:19 AM
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A significant one.
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majid_sabet
Feb 28, 2007, 2:21 AM
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cintune wrote: A significant one.
Is there any formula to calculate this ?
there has to be climber round here with PHD in math
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epoch
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Feb 28, 2007, 2:23 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: cintune wrote: A significant one. Is there any formula to calculate this ? there has to be climber round here with PHD in math
You don't have the answer to it??
*falls out of chair*
{BTW: I'm curious to see how the numbers go. I may even toss it around the office tomorrow and see if any of the geniuses have an answer, that is unless this is answered tonight.}
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cintune
Feb 28, 2007, 2:26 AM
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Variables include amount of friction, weight of climber, speed of traverse. I ain't figuring it out. I like cables, but if it's dynamic rope it's gonna stretch and form the V of death.
(This post was edited by cintune on Feb 28, 2007, 2:31 AM)
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