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rrrADAM
Sep 30, 2001, 9:36 PM
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I'm currently working at a North Carolina Nuclear Power Plant as a QC Inspector, requiring me to inspect expansion bolts, this qualifies me as an 'expert'. I just witnessed experienced and skilled Civil Mechanics blow the placements of two expansion bolts. These guys are experienced and paid to set bolts propperly, and they regularly blow placements.
Thought you should know...
Fact: The main cause for blowing the placement of an expansion bolt is 'over-tightening'. A man can EASILY overtighten a bolt with a small wrench (can generate up to 80 ft/lbs of torque), some 3/8" bolts require as little as 20 ft/lbs, more than that will ruin it's placement. How sure are you of the skills of the person that placed the bolts you're clipping into ??? How many 'spinners' have since been tightened by subsequent climbers, and how tight ??? How many climbers do think are under the impression of "the tighter the better", and have retightened a bolt they thought was loose ???
Fact: A existing expansion bolt's grip within the placement IS degraded if it is hit with a solid blunt object. How many people have you seen tap a bolt with a biner to 'test' it's placement ??? This 'test' will tell you nothing, and even the force generated by a biner can degrade the placement causing it to loosen. You can test a pin this way, but NOT a bolt.
Fact: Expansion bolts are desingned to be loaded transversely(perpendicular to axis) not tensionally(pulling). The load tensionally is a FRACTION of what it will hold if loaded transversely.(i.e. A bolt under a roof, where the hanger also acts as a lever dramatically increasing tension.)
Hilti Kwik Bolts, Phillip Red Heads, Drillco Maxi-Bolts... Do you know the difference ???
Would you be able to tell the difference between a bolt acceptable to use for 'life support' from one purchased from Home Depot or Wall-Mart ???
I've seen inappropriate bolts and improperlly set bolts at popular crags accross the US.
It would be advised for everyone to read up on the propper technique for installing and inspecting expansion bolts and the propper bolts to use. Bolts and instalation requirements WILL change depending on rock type and climate.
I clip bolts, so I'm not saying bolts are unsafe. Bolts are bombproof only when properly installed, and not subsequently degraded by some climber who thinks "tighter is better".
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-09-13 16:16 ]
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rck_climber
Oct 1, 2001, 2:01 AM
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Excellent points, Adam. Sat reading through and saying "I did not know that" the whole time.
Good post. I'll wait for the one-on-one lesson when we link up at Shelf .
Mick
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rrrADAM
Oct 1, 2001, 2:27 AM
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No not the end...
I sport as well as trad. Just inspecting expansion bolts, among other things, for a living, and understanding their shortcomings, makes ME feel more secure on a BD Stopper I've placed myself. I still clip bolts. I'm just keenly aware of how much I'll commit to a dicey move above a mankey bolt.
But that's just ME.
rrrADAM
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2001-09-30 21:33 ]
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climberchk
Oct 1, 2001, 5:10 AM
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Rock on Percie. I feel totally different' about sport climbing. But I'm still not sure weather I would rather place my own protection(trad), or use bolts (sport). I don't know if I trust myself that much yet
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compclimber
Oct 1, 2001, 6:39 AM
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The problem is that no one has the balls to put out a "Bolting For Dummies" book. So alot of the time people are misinformed when they go about establishing routes. If you want to start bolting routes then ask around and find out if the other setters in the area would allow you to bolt a line with their guidance. Most of the time they will have no problem with it if you buy them dinner or a beer...or both.
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jsm280
Oct 1, 2001, 4:14 PM
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Don't forget about the type of rock.....
Soft rock requires a longer bolt to get the same holding force. (softer sandstone needs about a 5 inch deep bolt)
If the bolt hole is drilled out of round this also makes a difference in the surface area of the expansion bolt and if the bolt can wiggle (may only do this when loaded, during a fall for example) this will create stress fractures in the bolt where people can not see, until it's to late. The bolts close to the crux are most likley to have this problem.
Then you also have epoxy bolting, materials of bolts, quality of rock..... BLA BLA BLA.......
I'd rather Trad.....
.
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rrrADAM
Oct 1, 2001, 6:48 PM
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There are a lot of parameters in determining the propper bolts to use, too many to detail each one in a post or reply.
Sport climbing is safe. I'm just trying to bring awareness to a growing situation caused by the rapid growth of our sport, and inexperienced people bolting routes simple to claim a 'first ascent'.
I've seen classic TR only routes in J-Tree bolted, so some egomaniac can try to claim the first 'lead ascent', but this is another topic all together.
rrrADAM
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i.karen
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Oct 1, 2001, 8:46 PM
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you're so smart baby.
KK
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jds100
Oct 1, 2001, 10:22 PM
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Check the "Rock drills" forum on this website. Please!
[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-10-01 15:23 ]
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rrrADAM
Oct 2, 2001, 9:51 PM
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I did bro, you posted after me.
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jds100
Oct 3, 2001, 12:33 AM
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Adam,
I was suggesting that everybody look at the Rock Drills forum. Good job, bringing this subject up, too. I think you're exactly right, it's going to be a growing concern for quite awhile.
I think it'd be a good article, albeit a long one, to write about proper bolting, covering everything from good judgement to drilling and placeing well. In the other forum on rock drills, there was concern that the original questioner might not have enough experience to go drilling, much less be asking advice about what brand of drill to buy. (Somebody on another website mentioned "masonry bolts" for climbing, and I was cringin'!!)
On second thought, maybe proper bolting is just opening a huge can of worms. I think it's a valid subject, but it's such a damned huge monster to try to tame with a general article. Maybe answering questions in a forum. So, if there are any questions out there.....
I think it'd be good to see what people have to say about what bolts to get, how to place them, how to read the rock for placements and stances, etc., etc. And, where and how are people learning about bolting? From other climbers? Books and magazines? Instructions included with the hardware? Just curious.
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rrrADAM
Oct 6, 2001, 12:35 AM
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Understood 'jds'...
But, like I said, "There's too many parameters to list in a post..."
rrrADAM
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talons05
Oct 6, 2001, 4:59 AM
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Hey rradam, that's interesting. I never thought of that, especially the part about only 20 lbs of force! That's amazing. Yet another reason why I climb trad instead...
AW
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rrrADAM
Oct 9, 2001, 3:20 AM
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That's not 20 lbs. of force on the bolt, it's 20 ft.lbs. of torque on the nut to overtighten and ruin some 3/8" placements.
This can easiley be accomplished with a small wrench.
rrrADAM
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rrrADAM
Oct 13, 2001, 12:22 AM
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Just saw another one here at work the other day.
rrrADAM
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greatgarbanzo
Oct 13, 2001, 5:46 PM
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I AM A PROLIFIC BOLTER (DOES THIS LAST SENTENCE MAKES ANY SENSE?) I HAVE EXTENSIVE READING MATERIAL ON BOLTING, IF ANY ONE INTERESTED JUST EMAIL ME AT
GARBANZO_7@HOTMAIL.COM, I WONT CHARGE YOU ANYTHING... JEJEJE
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rrrADAM
Oct 19, 2001, 7:22 PM
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BTT
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rrrADAM
Oct 23, 2001, 12:30 AM
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This year I only know of 3. They were all carbon steel rap anchors that failed, should'ce been stainless steel as recomended by the ASCA. Did hear of a few injuries as well from climbers decking when 1rst and 2nd bolts failed during a fall.
Sorry, don't know about last year, or the ones before.
rrrADAM
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rrrADAM
Oct 24, 2001, 2:39 AM
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Two people on a double rappel fell in Pinnacles National Monument in California early in the year, this I heard from a climber who frequents that place while in J-Tree.
1 was listed in passings, in Climbing or Rock & Ice, but it was only listed as a rappeling acciident.
rrrADAM
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rrrADAM
Oct 25, 2001, 7:06 AM
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I beg to differ with you...
The rock at Pinnacle National Park is Breccia(sp?), which is notoriously friable. The guide book itself refers to several fatalities due to gear failure, among them bolts, and site some involving double rap bolts. The case I spoke of involved 2 bolts with 2 people doing a double rappel, the bolts failed, they died.
While placing bolts on this type of rock can be sound, it must be done correctly, with greater embedment depths required. And since this rock is so friable, carbon steel bolts will quickly corrode the minerals in the rock, causing it to act as a Sacrificial Anode, read a metalurgy book.
I don't know what it is that you want from me to prove this to you, I cannot get death certificates. Why don't you go to REI and read the warnings in the Pinnacles guide book ??? There are documented fatalities here, then you can right the authors asking them for credible proof of the cases they've sited.
rrrADAM
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jaydoc
Nov 6, 2001, 11:15 PM
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Well, now I have anxiety.
[ This Message was edited by: jaydoc on 2001-11-06 15:18 ]
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talons05
Nov 11, 2001, 3:13 AM
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Wow, this may be a little late and no one may ever see my post, but i find it hard to believe, souldriver, that you don't think anyone died in a rap accident from improper double anchors. Nothing is bombproof, and especially not when it's done improperly (like using the wrong material)
AW
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rrrADAM
Nov 24, 2001, 6:54 AM
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You may be able to get more detailed information from Chris MacNamara, he's in charge of the ASCA.
(American Safe Climbing Association)
http://www.safeclimbing.com/ (ASCA)
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rrrADAM
Nov 24, 2001, 6:58 AM
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Here's just one page you should see...
http://www.safeclimbing.com/danger_bolts.html
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climb512
Nov 30, 2001, 6:48 AM
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great bolting info as well as a well spoken argument with souldriver, how much more proof did the guy need? like you said did he need copies of the death certificates
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