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Pliny
Jun 25, 2007, 4:47 AM
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AZrockclimber1988
Jun 25, 2007, 5:24 AM
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There is many ways to tie into a anchor. The best method for a swing belay, is to make a two clove hitch anchor with a master point. The best for a the same leader the whole climb is to make a anchor out of a long sling tied in the middle for the master point. Then you hook your harness into the each bolt with a daisy, PAS, or a sling. Then you hook your the belay device to the belay loop and redirect the rope to the second through the anchor you made above. Which you never undo your knot at your harness, so that you never have to worry about not tying back in right 3 pitches off the deck. But the best way to learn this, is to have a experienced climber show you in the field.
MichaelIn reply to:
(This post was edited by AZrockclimber1988 on Jun 25, 2007, 5:25 AM)
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the_shoe
Jun 25, 2007, 5:40 AM
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AZrockclimber1988 wrote: There is many ways to tie into a anchor. The best method for a swing belay, is to make a two clove hitch anchor with a master point. The best for a the same leader the whole climb is to make a anchor out of a long sling tied in the middle for the master point. Then you hook your harness into the each bolt with a daisy, PAS, or a sling. Then you hook your the belay device to the belay loop and redirect the rope to the second through the anchor you made above. Which you never undo your knot at your harness, so that you never have to worry about not tying back in right 3 pitches off the deck. But the best way to learn this, is to have a experienced climber show you in the field. Michael What? 
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AZrockclimber1988
Jun 25, 2007, 5:48 AM
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I tried to describe in words how to make a anchor, it is a lot easier to show in person with a visual.
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the_shoe
Jun 25, 2007, 5:59 AM
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The real answer to this question can only come from three (well written books  ) by John Long. Check out his Climbing Anchors series.
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musicman1586
Jun 25, 2007, 8:20 AM
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"Then you hook your harness into the each bolt with a daisy"
...um...no one's commented on this yet?
or have I completely misunderstood him?
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pro_alien
Jun 25, 2007, 10:48 AM
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You never leave your harness or untie the rope (usually) until the climb is over.
There is no consistency because there are different anchors - bolts vs. multiple trad placements, hanging vs. comfortable ledge. And there are different philosophies. If you have to build the anchor yourself, the new edition of John Long's book is a good reference.
Where I climb the anchors are usually bolted, often connected by a chain - a tether sling girth hitched to the harness is the fastest way to clip in there. Slings should always be kept under light tension to avoid shock load - they are not dynamic like rope.
Daisy chains: please read up on "daisy death clip" before using them.
When belaying the second, belaying from the anchor master point using an autoblock capable device (e.g. ATC Guide, Reverso, B-52) is the best option. I have used all of them, like the ATC Guide the best.
(Reverso - wear issues, B-52 - requires two carabiners to connect to the anchor when using dual ropes).
When belaying the leader, you should belay from the belay loop. When swinging leads, wait until the second has clipped to the anchor with his tether sling, then you can move the ATC Guide from the anchor to your belay loop: just remove the ATC from the carabiner holding it to the master point, and clip the carabiner the rope goes through to your belay loop. No need to rethread the rope through the ATC. This makes for a very fast transition.
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coastal_climber
Jun 25, 2007, 3:28 PM
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When I reach anchors I clip into one with my dasiy chain (end loop) and clove hitch the other bolt with the climbing rope. I then either run a re-directional off one of the bolts, or just belay directly off my harness. All senarios are different, and you should do what ever suits you best, and saves time.
>Cam
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ja1484
Jun 26, 2007, 1:22 AM
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Several things:
1) Multipitch anchors, attachment of climbers to the anchor = climbing rope only, no exceptions!!! If you need to shorten up, tie an additional knot on a bight in your strand and clip that into your belay loop + rope tie-in loop.
Falling on static materials can be disasterous. Everyone should read this report from Chuck Weber of PMI:
http://www.caves.org./...tical/nh/47/itrs.pdf
It shows, in clear terms, that F2 falls on static materials can generate loads in the 4000 to 6000lb range (18 to 27 kN, approximately speaking), which is REALLY pushing the limits of most carabiners, slings, etc.
Lesson: If you are directly anchored with a static material, take *especial* care not to fall on it. I realize that many times direct slings are convenient and useful (cleaning sport routes, rappel changeovers, etc.) - and I use them myself. Just take care.
2) A direct belay off the anchor results in lower loads applied to the anchor in the event of catching a fall and an easier, faster setup. Avoid re-directs unless you can be sure the piece you are redirecting through is absolutely bomber enough to hold the fall all by itself.
3) If you're working with bolted anchors and are working with pitches less than ~170ft (60m rope assumed), a locker on each anchor followed by a double loop figure-8 makes a great quick belay anchor with minimal gear for straight downward pull. Tie a directional 8 in the climber's line to belay from, set up the belay device, and bring the second up. NO, this anchor does not offer equalization on par with an equallette, but with a straight down pull and two or more solid bolts/trees/whatever, it shouldn't need to. Do NOT use this method on long pitches where you will need all or close to all of your rope. Obviously, constructing the anchor eats rope.
Another good option if you know fixed anchors are in place or if you need the whole rope is a QUAD/Equallette with a clove hitch/8 for the belayer and a direct belay for the second. Word to the wise: Have a couple lockers already on the power-point for the second to anchor into once he/she arrives at the belay. This does take more gear/prep time however.
4) Daisy chains are just asking for it not only because they're static materials, but also because of "daisy death" clipping. Look into it.
That's all for now...I think...
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Jun 26, 2007, 1:26 AM)
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macblaze
Jun 26, 2007, 1:52 AM
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Carabiner overload... and how to avoid it?
We successfully completed our first mutlipitch sport climb this weekend (yeah) and I have a related question that comes out of our experience. There were three of us.
First pitch, I lead a pitch and built an anchor with two locking biners and a sling. I clove hitched another locking biner on the bolts and figure 8 on a bight one of the anchor biners.
Climber 2 came up and clipped the 2nd bolt with a locking biner and a sling and put a figure 8 on a bight on my locking biner.
Climber three just passed on by and repeat. Everything works fine as long as the midle climber stays inthe middle. If not I have to figure out how to get my clove hitch off without taking half climber 2's tie-in off for a moment...
It seemed to me we had two few biners going but two locking biners per climber plus 2 more for the anchor seems a bit excessive for . I picked up Long's book and the quad seems like a good way to avoid cramming all those biners in 2 bolts which solves one issue, but is it really neccessary for each climber to carry two locking biners?
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ja1484
Jun 26, 2007, 2:20 AM
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macblaze wrote: Carabiner overload... and how to avoid it? We successfully completed our first mutlipitch sport climb this weekend (yeah) and I have a related question that comes out of our experience. There were three of us. First pitch, I lead a pitch and built an anchor with two locking biners and a sling. I clove hitched another locking biner on the bolts and figure 8 on a bight one of the anchor biners. Climber 2 came up and clipped the 2nd bolt with a locking biner and a sling and put a figure 8 on a bight on my locking biner. Climber three just passed on by and repeat. Everything works fine as long as the midle climber stays inthe middle. If not I have to figure out how to get my clove hitch off without taking half climber 2's tie-in off for a moment... It seemed to me we had two few biners going but two locking biners per climber plus 2 more for the anchor seems a bit excessive for . I picked up Long's book and the quad seems like a good way to avoid cramming all those biners in 2 bolts which solves one issue, but is it really neccessary for each climber to carry two locking biners?
Depends on how you anchor in. Most commonly when I'm doing multipitch with my primary partner, I construct the anchor of lockers + rope as mentioned earlier and we swap leads. This essentially means two lockers are all the anchor gear we need for both of us.
Of course, to be on the safe side and be prepared for unexpected consequences, we usually carry four lockers apiece along with an equallette and a 10ft length of tubular webbing, in case we have to work some unexpected magic with natural anchors or some such.
To my mind, lack of redundancy in anchor links is not a problem, so long as the single link is the climbing rope itself. After all, if its a good enough single link to take *lead falls* on, why isn't it a good enough single link to hold body weight (or less) at the belay? Just be sure to use knots with absolutely NO chance of slippage, e.g. fig-8 on a bight.
I would note that I like most all carabiners doubled, so if you do use the rope + 1 knot to anchor with, please clip said knot into two biners. So yeah, I'd say a minimum of two biners each.
Edit addition: A single 'biner can pass muster, but do your best to buffer this single piece of gear against potential failures. Carabiners typically fail from odd loading or from being accidentally opened to release their contents. For this reason, if you must use a single biner for some purpose (such as belaying, or anchoring as we're discussing here), use a nasty strong 'biner with protections against accidential opening. The best carabiner currently available for this purpose (IMO) is the DMM Boa Locksafe:
http://www.dmmclimbing.com/....asp?id=3&id2=55
Massively strong, even off axis, with a two-stage autolocking gate that makes accidental openings a nonissue.
A last note worth stressing:
When you venture into the world of multipitch trad/adventure climbing, preparedness is key. Carrying extra gear that *might* come in useful in emergencies is something you should be willing to do, and the ability to IMPROVISE is more useful than any singular piece on your rack.
So...observe...analyze...think...survive. And don't be afraid to add it to your gear slings if you think "Hey, might need that. Probably not, but maybe."
(This post was edited by ja1484 on Jun 26, 2007, 2:25 AM)
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tradrenn
Jun 27, 2007, 1:51 AM
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macblaze wrote: We successfully completed our first mutlipitch sport climb this weekend (yeah) and I have a related question that comes out of our experience. There were three of us.
Congrats
macblaze wrote: First pitch, I lead a pitch and built an anchor with two locking biners and a sling. I clove hitched another locking biner on the bolts and figure 8 on a bight one of the anchor biners. Climber 2 came up and clipped the 2nd bolt with a locking biner and a sling and put a figure 8 on a bight on my locking biner. Climber three just passed on by and repeat. Everything works fine as long as the middle climber stays in the middle. If not I have to figure out how to get my clove hitch off without taking half climber 2's tie-in off for a moment... It seemed to me we had two few biners going but two locking biners per climber plus 2 more for the anchor seems a bit excessive for . I picked up Long's book and the quad seems like a good way to avoid cramming all those biners in 2 bolts which solves one issue, but is it really necessary for each climber to carry two locking biners?
In this situation you have to option:
Option #1 where one person leads all pitches
You get to 2 bolts anchor, first you clip a biner to one of the bolts and clove hitch yourself to it then you make a back up, lets say fig.8 on a bite clipped to second bolt, then you clip your Quad to 2 bolts and have your two Followers clip into master point of quad, again Clove Hitch and back up fig. 8 on a bite for each of them.
After they get to the anchor, one of them puts you on belay and you undo your CH and clip that rope thru a draw then undo your back up fig 8 on a bite and you are ready to lead another pitch.
Option #2 Two leaders swap leads
You use Quad and tie into it ( the same way as in point #1 ) then second person ties into Quad as well, third person arrives at anchor station, clips in just for a minute, takes more draws, drink some water, etc. ( in a mean time you put them on belay ) and off they go.
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Pliny
Jun 30, 2008, 12:44 AM
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Registered: Jun 25, 2007
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thanks for you comments. I learned from all the comments. The basis for all of them is clear: Everything is solid all the time and thought out ahead of time. I set up an anchor after leading a long exposed climb yesterday and followed your suggestions for a simple, strong, secure anchor that reduced my anxiety.
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QuadForAnchor.JPG
