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majid_sabet
Jul 5, 2007, 7:44 AM
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I was getting a ride home from two climbers last weekend and one of them was telling how he had a 25 feet fall. He placed several nuts and one cam but when he fell, the first few pros just below his harness got pulled but one nut kept him from decking.
Interesting that below this nut that practically saved him, he had several other nuts but, they were all out so he asked me what I thought happened out there.
I told him, there is a possibility that sudden rapid rope upward movement during his fall with a combination of friction created by biner may moved the protections upward and basically they got pulled up due to rapid friction and pulled to side at the same time and that is why they were all out below his only good protection.
What do you guys think?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jul 7, 2007, 12:24 AM)
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flint
Jul 5, 2007, 7:53 AM
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Let the games begin.........
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yokese
Jul 5, 2007, 8:08 AM
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Probably zipper effect due to the lack of multidirectional placements, but without having seen the actual fall, this is just a guess.
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medicus
Jul 5, 2007, 8:11 AM
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yokese wrote: Probably zipper effect due to the lack of multidirectional placements, but without having seen the actual fall, this is just a guess.
I second the "probably zipper effect."
Although, after the photos all loaded up, I hope the last image isn't the truth, as it would appear that all pro pulled.
(This post was edited by medicus on Jul 5, 2007, 8:14 AM)
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overlord
Jul 5, 2007, 9:29 AM
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which pro pulled? below the nut or above it?
if it was below the nut, its a classical zipper because he failed to place a multidirectional first piece. that would be caused by upward and outward force on pro.
but if he pulled the pro above the nut, it was probably just bad placement. i cant see how an upward force could be generated in this scenario (it would be kindof possible on a roof though).
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bent_gate
Jul 5, 2007, 11:19 AM
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As with the others, I'm not completely sure which pieces you are saying that came out, but it sounds like your standard zipper upwards.
I'm amazed how many climbers do not start their pitch with a bomber directional to secure the rest of their pieces they will be placing. A lot of people start leading trad without taking any classes, and this is the first thing that is missed. And a lot of these climbers become experienced climbers who figure if they just set their first piece with a good downward yank, then they should be fine. Without any consideration as to where their belayer is, and the direction the rope is going to pull.
Directionals are an art unto themselves, and the variety of ways to create them is always something worth posting. No one has seen them all and I'm always looking for new, creative methods of placing them.
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cantbuymefriends
Jul 5, 2007, 12:18 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I was getting a ride home from two climbers last weekend and one of them was telling how he had a 25 feet fall. He placed several nuts and one cam but when he fell, the first few pros just below his harness got pulled but one nut kept him from decking. Interesting that below this nut that practically saved him, he had several other nuts but, they were all out so he asked me what I thought happened out there. I told him, there is a possibility that sudden rapid rope upward movement during his fall with a combination of friction created by biner may moved the protections upward and basically they got pulled up due to rapid friction and pulled to side at the same time and that is why they were all out below his only good protection.
So there where pieces being pulled out both above and below the single piece that held?
Ditto on the zipper effect for the lower pieces, and the bad placements for the higher ones.
As for the lower pieces being pulled up and out, it's just a simple case of triangulation of forces, since a rope only can hold a force in the direction it is being pulled. Tell your belayer to stand closer to the wall...
No, really. You can try and extend the sling on the first piece, but if you're unlucky you will only get the zipper effect on the second piece and up instead. The best option I think is to place 2 pieces in opposition as the first pro, or if that seems hard to do, place a first piece that is specifically for holding an upward/outward pull.
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dr_feelgood
Jul 5, 2007, 12:44 PM
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Protections come out when you and a lady friend get ready to do some funny business.
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dellochef
Jul 5, 2007, 1:53 PM
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your theory seems to be reasonable, but what acetly do you mean with directionals. Do you mean fixing the first peace of gear downwards with another nut. Like the way you must do it when belaying from a nut-protected stand and not wanting to get lifted by the climber above you?
Any better explanations?
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winglessangel
Jul 5, 2007, 1:58 PM
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cantbuymefriends wrote: So there where pieces being pulled out both above and below the single piece that held? Ditto on the zipper effect for the lower pieces, and the bad placements for the higher ones. As for the lower pieces being pulled up and out, it's just a simple case of triangulation of forces, since a rope only can hold a force in the direction it is being pulled. Tell your belayer to stand closer to the wall... No, really. You can try and extend the sling on the first piece, but if you're unlucky you will only get the zipper effect on the second piece and up instead. The best option I think is to place 2 pieces in opposition as the first pro, or if that seems hard to do, place a first piece that is specifically for holding an upward/outward pull.
Zipper on the lower pieces, ditto!!
But the upper, wasn't necessarily all bad placements.
Maybe the one that held was bomber, and multidirectional and maybe the first bellow him was good but not bomber.
He falls, it hold for a while, there is a zipper effect between the bomber one and the top one. Then the top one finally fails. The bomber piece holds and there is the zipper on the lower pros.
So not all upper pieces were bat placements, just one. When trad climb it is good to place directionals every once in a while. And use long slings to minimize friction and pulls that are not downward.
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trenchdigger
Jul 5, 2007, 3:30 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I told him, there is a possibility that sudden rapid rope upward movement during his fall with a combination of friction created by biner may moved the protections upward and basically they got pulled up due to rapid friction and pulled to side at the same time and that is why they were all out below his only good protection. What do you guys think?
I think you're clueless.
So you're saying he jumped straight up when he fell? Not likely. And even if he did, how would this movement be any different than him pulling up rope for a clip?
Bottom line - if the guy thought all of the pieces were solid and didn't expect any placements to fail, the guy doesn't know how to properly protect a traditional climb and shouldn't be doing a gear lead.
The placements that failed above the nut that saved him were likely poorly placed. Some below The lower placements zippered because of one or more of the following a) the placements were poorly located, b) sideways pull due to the rope not traveling in a straight line between pieces was not considered, and/or c) the pieces were not properly extended with draws or slings.
Placing a multi-directional piece as your first piece does NOT negate the possibility of a zipper. The zipper can start at any piece in the system from the first to the second to last if the geometry dictates.
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grover
Jul 5, 2007, 3:35 PM
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flint wrote: Let the games begin.........
LMAO!!!!
Majid,
The weight of his helmet might be a factor.
I would say get rid of said helmet and try the pitch again.
If that doesn't work strip off the legloops for less weight.
Mark
edited to add.... Hey, is that guy in your drawing(s) using a biner to tie in with???
Bad practice......
Tssk Tssk, Majid you should know better than that.
Think of the children, will you just think of the children!!!!!
Re-edited to add...
On second thought your climber would probably have a better chance of sending this crack if he took off those stupid gloves. sheesh!
(This post was edited by grover on Jul 5, 2007, 3:46 PM)
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majid_sabet
Jul 5, 2007, 4:49 PM
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In reply to: So there where pieces being pulled out both above and below the single piece that held?
Yes that is correct.
We know the top pros got pulled due to zipper action but he was trying to figure out why the lower protections were out just below his last piece that held.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jul 5, 2007, 4:50 PM)
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dlintz
Jul 5, 2007, 4:58 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: So there where pieces being pulled out both above and below the single piece that held? Yes that is correct. We know the top pros got pulled due to zipper action but he was trying to figure out why the lower protections were out just below his last piece that held.
Did the cam pull also?
d.
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highlander
Jul 5, 2007, 5:01 PM
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First pice of pro should be multi-directional to avoid zippering your gear
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majid_sabet
Jul 5, 2007, 5:01 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I told him, there is a possibility that sudden rapid rope upward movement during his fall with a combination of friction created by biner may moved the protections upward and basically they got pulled up due to rapid friction and pulled to side at the same time and that is why they were all out below his only good protection. What do you guys think? I think you're clueless. So you're saying he jumped straight up when he fell? Not likely. And even if he did, how would this movement be any different than him pulling up rope for a clip? Bottom line - if the guy thought all of the pieces were solid and didn't expect any placements to fail, the guy doesn't know how to properly protect a traditional climb and shouldn't be doing a gear lead. The placements that failed above the nut that saved him were likely poorly placed. Some below The lower placements zippered because of one or more of the following a) the placements were poorly located, b) sideways pull due to the rope not traveling in a straight line between pieces was not considered, and/or c) the pieces were not properly extended with draws or slings. Placing a multi-directional piece as your first piece does NOT negate the possibility of a zipper. The zipper can start at any piece in the system from the first to the second to last if the geometry dictates.
In reply to: And even if he did, how would this movement be any different than him pulling up rope for a clip?
So let me ask you this MR. Right
Is falling and pulling the rope with forces is the same as climbing and pulling up the rope ?
if your answer is yes then you are really a dumb climber and should not be allowed near any rocks.
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majid_sabet
Jul 5, 2007, 5:03 PM
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dlintz wrote: majid_sabet wrote: In reply to: So there where pieces being pulled out both above and below the single piece that held? Yes that is correct. We know the top pros got pulled due to zipper action but he was trying to figure out why the lower protections were out just below his last piece that held. Did the cam pull also? d.
yes cam got pulled
he was held by a nut and all other nut below this nut were all out
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majid_sabet
Jul 5, 2007, 5:04 PM
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highlander wrote: First pice of pro should be multi-directional to avoid zippering your gear
Which first pro are you talking ? first pro above belayer or last pro below his harness?
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wmfork
Jul 5, 2007, 5:11 PM
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overlord already told you lower pieces were pulled because of zipper action and the top ones pulled probably because they sucked.
I've had one top piece pull while taking a fall (and a couple instances of where a cam would unsettle itself if I fall a couple more times). I've never had a middle piece pull while taking a fall (though plenty could have if I fell on some routes). And I've had a number of instance of pieces pop out while dragging up the second.
This isn't uncommon, but if you/your friend don't understand why...
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highlander
Jul 5, 2007, 5:12 PM
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fist piece off the ground or start of the pitch or if you can get one in rght away, you should strive to have one in early on in the pitch to keep your bottom gear from zippering.
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wmfork
Jul 5, 2007, 5:14 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Which first pro are you talking ? first pro above belayer or last pro below his harness?
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majid_sabet
Jul 5, 2007, 5:15 PM
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wmfork wrote: overlord already told you lower pieces were pulled because of zipper action and the top ones pulled probably because they sucked. I've had one top piece pull while taking a fall (and a couple instances of where a cam would unsettle itself if I fall a couple more times). I've never had a middle piece pull while taking a fall (though plenty could have if I fell on some routes). And I've had a number of instance of pieces pop out while dragging up the second. This isn't uncommon, but if you/your friend don't understand why...
Sorry , I will buy the zipper action for all top pros that got pulled due to shock load and but not the nut below his last good protection which held him from decking.
One nut held and several nut below this nut where all out.
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greenketch
Jul 5, 2007, 5:19 PM
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Majid I think your missing the boat here. The classic zipper effect takes place from bottom up. It is due to the multiplication of forces as the rope changes angle from the belayer to the climber. (do you reckognize a part of the Death triangle in your picture?) once this piece is jeked out the same happens on the next. It is easy to predict because the forces are big and the angle is not as planned. The answer is to put in a bomber multi direction as th first piece above the belayer. This keeps the rope running the correct direction and resists the odd forces.
One could get a zipper on upper pieces and these are aresult of bad placement usually.
In a mid route zipper it is the geometry of the rock and the leader not use slings approprietly. Especially bad as one turns a lip or roof. The rope crateing an significant angle at any pieceis not good.
Good to hear the folks you were talking to are oK
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yokese
Jul 5, 2007, 5:20 PM
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majid_dabet wrote: We know the top pros got pulled due to zipper action but he was trying to figure out why the lower protections were out just below his last piece that held.
majid_sabet wrote: Sorry , I will buy the zipper action for all top pros that got pulled due to shock load and but not the nut below his last good protection which held him from decking.
Obviously you have no clue about how the zipper effect works.
(This post was edited by yokese on Jul 5, 2007, 5:22 PM)
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