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ctclimber
Sep 30, 2002, 10:22 PM
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I have a question about belaying a leader on sport. I have read about belayers jumping when the leader falls to create a softer fall and I have also read about the belayer being anchored in as I normally am. Can the two (jumping and being ground anchored) coexist? I would really appreciate some replys to this as I wish to give the falling lead a soft fall as I know I would appreciate as well.
Your fellow climber
-CT
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hroldan
Sep 30, 2002, 10:37 PM
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mmm... haven't seen anything like it (jumping) I think is not apropiate. The rope makes the fall softer but is very important that the belayer is on the ground.
I've seen this but not on purpose. I've seen falls where the belayer is pulled up. In fact, I've seen long falls where the leader's on a hard move and tells the belayer on time: get ready, I may fly. And the belayer takes a safer position, making sure he stays on the ground avoinding being lifted.
[ This Message was edited by: hroldan on 2002-09-30 15:37 ]
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jono13
Sep 30, 2002, 10:40 PM
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yes ive heard about that, and as long as your belayer has a steady hand and isnt gonna let go, its not a huge deal. Another thing to do, is if the leader falls on an overhang, is to let out a little bit of slack so he doesnt bash into the hang. Little techniques eh?
cheers
jono
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transse
Sep 30, 2002, 10:44 PM
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I have never seen anyone actually jump on purpose. On especially marginal gear it sometimes helps if the belayer doesn't sit in the harness, but rather gives a softer catch. There probably really isn't a big deal if the person jumps as long as the extra rope doesn't deck the leader onto a ledge.
Jake
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paulc
Sep 30, 2002, 10:55 PM
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Yes a small jump can create a hugely smoother softer fall for the fallee. As the last two people have said, don't let them deck though.
But really it is much more used in Trad, especially when the last few pieces are small as it reduces the force on the top pieces. I would use screamers on those pieces as well.
On sport it is less usefull as the bolts shouldn't fail (yeah, yeah, they can, but personally I worry more about the #1 and 2 RPs than a bolt)
Paul
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climbincajun
Sep 30, 2002, 10:59 PM
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I have seen the 'jump' technique in use when a sport leader is on overhanging terrain. It keeps the falling leader from swinging inward on a collision course with the wall.
I have also seen another variation of this, which is to give a little slack in the line when a leader falls. This is of course, only to be done when there is no danger of a ground fall, and only if the belayer is experienced.
I have also seen this done with trad leaders, I guess the logic being that it provides a more dynamic belay and ,therefore, less shock to the protection.
I dont know about the legitimacy of any of these techiniques!
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crzdriver
Sep 30, 2002, 11:13 PM
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I have a friend that uses a similar technique, but he doesn't jump. He just does a little hop. Little more than flexing your legs on a sport fall. On trad, though, my favorite technique in a ground fall situation is the running belay. Sounds funny, but works. A friend was a ways up on a route once, and was really run out with a #2 nut in a broken flake. It was rotten rock, and he was pretty nervous. A foothold broke, and I took off down the hill. Luckily, he stopped just a few feet short of the ground with his last 3 pieces in his lap. This is a pretty uncommon situation, and only works if the belayer is on the ground, but you may want to know it just in case. Have fun!!!
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climbincajun
Sep 30, 2002, 11:17 PM
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...the runnung belay can be useful in such situations, but be careful on trad...
as you run away from the wall, you increase the likelihood of 'zippering' due to the more oblique angle of the rope...
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tonygrieb
Sep 30, 2002, 11:20 PM
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A soft catch done properly can prevent injury(ankles mainly). Use only when leader is not going to hit anything, so overhanging or at least vertical rock. Ok here is how you do it:Squat down slightly before the leader falls. Right as the rope starts to catch you "go with it!"(Jump that is!). NEVER JUMP BEFORE THE ROPE STARTS TO CATCH, if you are already on your way back down from a jump when the rope catches then you end up giving a much harder catch than if you did not jump at all! Find a climb with safe falls and Practice this technique with your partners.
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micronut
Sep 30, 2002, 11:39 PM
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I saw a guy getting belayed with a GriGri. He fell, his belayer jumped up, the GriGri didn't lock, and he fell real far before the GriGri locked. I'd say make sure the fall is clean, stand directly beneth the first runner, and don't use a GriGri if you're gonna jump. A kid did a jump belay for me, and it freaked me out, but was soft.
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jt512
Sep 30, 2002, 11:42 PM
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Lots of beginners with lots of stories about what they've seen and haven't seen again, leading to the usual confusion. Tonygrieb got it right, although nobody answered the original question about whether you can jump and be anchored in. The answer is yes you can combine them by leaving slack in the anchor.
My question is why do you want to be tied in if you're belaying from the ground. If the ground is reasonably even and your partner doesn't severely outweigh, then what is the advantage of being tied in? Those who anchor in at the ground, do so because they're afraid of being pulled up if their partner falls, but you're planning to jump anyway, so why anchor? Instead, stand close to the base so you don't get pulled into the rock and give a little jump just as you feel your partner's weight come onto the rope. Be prepared to get your feet out in front of you so that if you end up swinging into the wall you can absorb the impact with your legs and not lose control of the belay.
A well-timed jump softens the leader's fall and reduces his swing into the wall. It's a standard sport climbing technique for vertical to overhanging routes where the leader will not hit an obstacle or the ground.
-Jay
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jt512
Oct 1, 2002, 12:26 AM
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This is an important enough topic that I feel compelled to correct some of the posted errata:
Quote:Hroldan: (jumping) I think is not apropiate.
Wrong. It is often appropriate; indeed, often necessary to keep your partner from smashing into the wall and breaking his ankle.
Quote:Paulc: On sport it is less usefull as the bolts shouldn't fail.
It is in fact a standard sport climbing technique. The issue isn't the bolts breaking; it's the leader's ankles breaking.
Quote:Climbincajun: I have seen the 'jump' technique in use when a sport leader is on overhanging terrain. It keeps the falling leader from swinging inward on a collision course with the wall.
Correct. That is the main benefit of jumping.
Quote:Crzdriver: On trad, though, my favorite technique in a ground fall situation is the running belay.
This has nothing to do with the question asked or the topic being discussed, and should have been posted in another thread. A running belay has nothing to do with sport vs. trad. It is a technique used to shorten the fall when the leader is going to hit the ground or an obstacle. A common mistake made by inexperienced belayers is to shorten an otherwise safe fall by sitting down or stepping back when the leader falls. This violently accelerates the climber into the wall, and thus should never be used unless it prevents the climber from hitting the ground or an abstacle.
Quote:Micronut: ...his belayer jumped up, the GriGri didn't lock.... ...don't use a GriGri if you're gonna jump.
Whatever reason the grigri didn't lock (this is almost always caused by the belayer holding the cam open), it wasn't because of the jump. Because of its autolocking feature, the gri-gri is probably the best belay device to use if you're going to jump (you still must back up the autolocking feature by locking off with the brake hand).
-Jay
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daggerx
Oct 1, 2002, 1:36 PM
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The only time Im have seen belayers jump in all my years of climbing is when they were pulled up, I dont really think it would help the fallling climber nor would it be safe.
DaggerX
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jt512
Oct 2, 2002, 12:33 AM
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Quote:The only time Im have seen belayers jump in all my years of climbing is when they were pulled up, I dont really think it would help the fallling climber nor would it be safe.
You're wrong, and I wouldn't let you belay me.
-Jay
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estwing
Oct 2, 2002, 1:17 AM
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Way to go jt512! As always very good, and correct info. I was going to say something similar, but no need now.
Keep it up,
Sam
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micronut
Oct 2, 2002, 1:41 AM
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jt152......what are you, the final authority on all climbing or what. And where do you get off calling everybody who responded berfore you "begginners". I saw a kid go far, the GriGri didn't lock, I think because there wasn't sufficent force applied to the camming device. You weren't there. Oh I forgot... your the all knowing climbing sage
[ This Message was edited by: micronut on 2002-10-01 18:43 ]
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boulderingmadman
Oct 2, 2002, 8:35 PM
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hey micronut--
as you may have noticed, jt and i have already had our disagreements. but it just so happens that in this particualar situation, he is ABSOLUTELY right. a jumping (or dynamic) belay is very useful in helping to soften the blow on an overhanging sportclimb. my partner and i use it frequently when redpointing hard sport routes. i also use it to soften the blow when a leader takes a long fall thats gonna impact the gear at a high fall factor to avoid breaking any ribs or ankles.
when used properly, and by an experienced belayer, the dynamic belay can prevent common injuries like broken ankles, rope burns on the legs (from poor rope skills when leading), and various "body meets rock" injuries.
DISCLAIMER: if you are inexperienced belayer, DO NOT attempt this practice. timing is of major importance. improper technique in a dynamic belay can result in injury to the leader and/or the belayer. if you are unfamiliar with dynamic belay techniques, seek QUALIFIED instruction BEFORE attmepting this technique.
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petsfed
Oct 2, 2002, 9:36 PM
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A variation of the dynamic belay that my partner and I use is akin to jumping, without leaving the ground. Two prerequisites however: bomber placements, either well placed nuts and cams or verifiable bolt placements and the belayer needs some flat ground to move around on. Essentially, the belayer stands back about 6 or 8 feet from the wall and when the leader falls, the belayer simply steps forward as the leader's weight goes on the rope. Caveat: this is not a beginner's technique and requires much practice, because if the belayer starts too soon, the leader just falls farther, and too late, extra stress is put on the belay system. Such is the case with jumping as well. And, just as with jumping, if a groundfall is a possibility, this technique is completely out. One could concievably anchor themselves with a long (like 6 foot or longer) runner if they don't want to be yanked into the air, but if that's a concern when the belayer is on the ground, perhaps one should find a lighter partner.
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jt512
Oct 3, 2002, 4:39 AM
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Quote:
what are you, the final authority on all climbing or what.
No, it just seems like it when I'm arguing with you.
Quote:
And where do you get off calling everybody who responded berfore you "begginners".
I didn't call "everyone" who responded before me a "biginner." However, anyone who has only "seen" someone do something as common as give a dynamic belay with a gri-gri can't be too experienced.
Quote:I saw a kid go far, the GriGri didn't lock, I think because there wasn't sufficent force applied to the camming device. You weren't there.
No, I wasn't there, but I've jumped and caught hundreds of falls with gri-gris and never once has the gri-gri slipped. I've also witnessed other people hundreds of times do likewise, and not once has the gri-gri slipped. I myself have been caught many, many times by this method (indeed, I ususally insist on being belayed this way), and have never been dropped.
On the other hand, I've witnessed a dozen or so times that the gri-gri has slipped and every single time it was caused by one or both of the following things: (1) the belayer was holding open the cam or (2) the belayer clamped down on the leader's side of the rope.
Quote:
Oh I forgot... your the all knowing climbing sage
Like I said, not really, but you sure make me look good.
-Jay
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rockprodigy
Oct 3, 2002, 5:00 PM
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For the record, I use this method too, my partner won't climb with people that don't know how to do it. If the Gri-Gri didn't lock, then he didn't have his brake hand on the rope...did the climber dirt? No? Then the Gri-Gri did it's job. The Gri-Gri is supposed to make belaying easier, it's not supposed to replace belaying altogether, you still have to keep your brake hand on the rope during a fall!
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overlord
Oct 3, 2002, 7:11 PM
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i havent yet jumped, but my belayer saved my butt by doing it on a route i was trying to RP. i just barely tuoched the rock with my legs...
CLIMB ON
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boulderingmadman
Oct 3, 2002, 7:12 PM
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petsfed--
just a quick note on your dynamic technique/variation. sounds like a decent way to perform a dynamic belay, the only problem being standing 6-8 feet back from the wall could have a tendency to cause excessive rope drag on the leader, almost causing the fall your now catching...
just a thought. ive had people ropedrag me to death doing s--- like that. i prefer to have my belayers close to the rock im climbing...if im gonna fall, its gonna be MY fault...
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msecoda
Oct 3, 2002, 7:44 PM
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I have seen both the jump and dynamic belay in use and they came be extremely handi tools to have in your bag of tricks. Just like anything you'll have to master them through practice. I saw a guy jump once while belaying in the gunks and he probably saved the leader a couple of stitches it not more.
As a side note you don't actually jump the first time, you just don't lower your body weight like you normally would to keep yourself on the ground. You will be amazed at how high you can get pulled up from a good lead fall. Personally I like my feet on the ground while I am belaying, so If I need to I choose to dynamic Belay. If you get pulled up hard you lose control and too many variables can happen. My advice is to stay on the ground. Climb safe
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climbthedj
Oct 3, 2002, 7:47 PM
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Jt512 has layed out the facts about the dynamic belay excellently, and though I'm more or less a beginner, I can see why the dynamic belay makes perfect sense. I'm a nerd and majored in Engineering, and from that standpoint, the dynamic belay absorbs the some (maybe much) of the energy of the falling leader, thus softening his fall. mmhhey, mmmhey. . .
prof. frink
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petsfed
Oct 3, 2002, 7:52 PM
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Very true. So as an addendum to what I said, do it only if 1) you're okay with a lot of rope drag, 2) you don't like jumping, and 3) the route is straight enough that the existence of your pro causes little rope drag (e.g. a dead straight route or where you are using lots of slings to make the rope run in a very straight line). Terribly sorry for posting incomplete (and therefore in terms of safety incorrect). I do pray know one acts on any of this without expert advice.
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