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cgesek
Jul 6, 2007, 12:03 PM
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The pamphlet that came with my 10mm Mammut/EMS Promo rope says "Immediate, mandatory replacement is necessary after a hard fall (fall factor >=1), extreme mechanical, or thermal damage, etc."
Is this true of all ropes? Is it overly cautious? Would most climbers retire a rope after a factor 1 fall?
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vertical_planar
Jul 6, 2007, 1:04 PM
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I think their statement is pretty clear. Immediate+mandatory replacement .
It might sound overcatious but I would not defy them.
How oftet do you get a factor >1 fall anyway?
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gogounou
Jul 6, 2007, 2:07 PM
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Not to hijack, but this begs a follow-up question (n00b-ish, perhaps, but, ya know, Beginner's Forum and all):
I was under the impression that the number of UIAA falls that a rope was rated at were factor 1 falls. I suppose that a fall greater than FF 1 would have me wondering about the rope (not to mention potentially pissing myself, but that's another issue...), but I would have assumed that a rope rated to, let's say, 8 UIAA falls, would not require retirement after 1. Am I wrong in this assumption?
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cantbuymefriends
Jul 6, 2007, 2:15 PM
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Yes, I would agree that "Immediate, mandatory replacement" doesn't leave much room for hesitation.
I thought that all climbing ropes were tested to at least 5 FF1.87 falls in order to receive UIAA certification?
Edited to add what i missed the first time:
But I guess that outside a controlled lab environment with your a$s instead of a crashtestdummy on the end of the rope, it's better to err on the safe side.
(This post was edited by cantbuymefriends on Jul 6, 2007, 2:21 PM)
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skinnyclimber
Jul 6, 2007, 2:28 PM
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cgesek wrote: The pamphlet that came with my 10mm Mammut/EMS Promo rope says "Immediate, mandatory replacement is necessary after a hard fall (fall factor >=1), extreme mechanical, or thermal damage, etc." Is this true of all ropes? Is it overly cautious? Would most climbers retire a rope after a factor 1 fall?
cut it in half and make a gym rope out of the "good" side. That's what I'd do if I thought part of my rope had "had it".
Yeah most UIAA certified ropes get 7-12 or so factor 1.78 falls before they break, although I don't know the minimum required. So it would seem that although it took a hard fall and should probably be retired from leading, it probably won't break at some amazingly low strength, but then again do you want to be thinking: "wow was it 6 or 7 fall factor 1's I've taken on this rope?" as you peel off...
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timm
Jul 6, 2007, 2:28 PM
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Hard falls cause the affected portion of the rope to lose dynamic qualities so that the impact force for future falls will increase. The 12kN standard for maximum impact force is for the first test fall and does not cover future falls. Yes, the rope will physically withstand more hard falls but will exert an higher than expected impact force on the anchor/gear.
If the hard fall occurred with a small amount of rope out ... say the last 20 or 30 feet ... I would chop that section off rope off when I got home and just use the un-affected portion of the rope as a shorty for top-roping or short leads. Why retire the section of rope which did not hold the fall ??
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picasso
Jul 6, 2007, 2:50 PM
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So what characteristics must a rope have in order to be UIAA Certified? If there are real climbing ropes out there that can handle only one FF>1 fall, then that sounds sketchy. I'd hate to be up on the third pitch of a rock and say "time to come down, i fell once on my brand new rope."
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jgloporto
Jul 6, 2007, 2:50 PM
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The way I look at it is that a standard climbing rope is for the most part a non-redundant element in the system. To add a margin of safety, the rope is tested to ensure that it can hold far more than what a typical fall would impose on it. The UIAA tests are admittedly unrealistic since the sytem is entirely static leaving the rope to absorb the entire force of the fall so a rope can theoretically hold far more real life factor one falls than the simulated UIAA test falls. But that just establishes that the safety margin on a climb is adequate not that a climber should use a rope until it's at its breaking point.
Considering this a beginners forum question, my formal answer is:
Read and comply with all of the instructions that come with any gear you purchase. You can read Climbing Anchors 2nd and get a calculator and start crunching numbers to reason all of this out, but especially as n00b, is your life less important than saving $120?
As others have said, if you do ever experience a factor one fall, retire the bad section or just make a rug out of the whole thing or use it to tie shit down on your car. Clearly Mammut wants to sell you more rope so of course they want you to retire it as soon as possible. They are also obviously concerned about legal liability so, is the manufacturer's warning over cautious? Absolutely. Especially as a new climber, should you be over cautious? Absolutely.
You can make a really nice rug with those those old ropes.
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picasso
Jul 6, 2007, 3:16 PM
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So your best bet is to take everyone's advice and get a new rope, but just so we all learn here, I did some research and found the answer to my own question.
From the bluewater tech manual website (http://spelean.com.au/BW/TM/BWtechdyn.html) it says "All ropes must exhibit less than 12 kN impact force and hold at least five test falls without breaking in order to meet the minimum UIAA standard." These test falls have a FF of just over 1.78.
The website also says "WARNING: a rope is not as valuable as a life. If for any reason you do not feel comfortable climbing on your rope, retire it!"
climb safe.
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stymingersfink
Jul 6, 2007, 3:17 PM
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cgesek wrote: Would most climbers retire a rope after a factor 1 fall?
Most EXPERIENCED climbers would probably think nothing of it.
If you have any doubts about your gear however, to err on the side of safety is generally the less expensive option in the long run.
I would recommend that you strive to understand the tests ropes are subjected to, the conditions of said tests, what effects it has upon the rope, and the forces which come into play during the testing process.
Check the Lab, search for T. Moyer tests on the web, become a sponge for information.
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dcaldous
Jul 6, 2007, 3:19 PM
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A UIAA certified rope must survive at least 5 1.78 factor falls. It must elongate less than 10% under a static 80 kg load. It can't elongate more than 40% during the factor 1.78 fall. The peak force during the first drop cannot be more than 12 kN. If you want to look at the standards yourself this is their website:
http://www.uiaa.ch/?c=188
People might want to keep in mind that a greater than factor 1 fall means that you have fallen past your belayer. I know I've never gotten close to falling past my belayer. I hope people aren't doing that too frequently
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sterlingjim
Jul 6, 2007, 4:02 PM
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Obviously the manufacturers have to be a bit conservative and recommend retiring the rope. If the rope fails they could be in big trouble. Ask yourself why else they are being conservative, though. They are recommending retirement because after a FF 1 they no longer have 100% confidence in the integrity of the rope. Now ask yourself why they no longer have 100% confidence. It's not because they want to sell more rope. Fall factor 1's are not terribly common and would likely only boost sales by a few ropes a year; hardly worth the risk.
As for the certifying tests, they mean next to nothing in terms of predicting the durability and longevity of a rope. The properties you see printed on the tags of the rope are essentially void after only a few uses. There is no way to predict the amount of damage done to a randomly 'aged' rope under a FF1. This does not mean a used rope is not safe, the UIAA Safety Commission have taken aging into account while designing the test. It just means if you choose to continue using the rope after a FF1 you have no guarantees.
So if:
Manufacturer correct + you retire rope = you're out some $$ but you're ok
Manufacturer incorrect + you retire rope = you're out some $$ but you're ok
Manufacturer incorrect + you don't retire rope = you're ok
Manufacturer correct + you don't retire rope = you could die.
Figure the odds and decide for yourself if your life and those of your partners are worth the risk.
edited to fix some grammar
(This post was edited by sterlingjim on Jul 6, 2007, 4:49 PM)
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jgloporto
Jul 6, 2007, 4:33 PM
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sterlingjim wrote: It's not because they want to sell more rope. Fall factor 1's are not terribly common and would likely only boost sales by a few ropes a year; hardly worth the risk....
Says the Sterling Rope guy...
just kidding.
I wasn't implying that the warning on ropes is meant to cause climbers to pre-maturely retire rope. I meant to say that some skeptical (and probably soon to be dead) person might argue that Mammut wants you to replace rope more often then is necessary, not on the basis of the number of >FF1's, but just generally.
Note that I would never suggest that some skeptical person might argue that certain other companies :cough: Sterling :cough: would engage in such practices.
(:wink,wink: can I have a free rope?)
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rangerrob
Jul 11, 2007, 3:02 PM
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You should totally retire that rope man. It's crazy climbing on any rope you already fell on. I mean, this is your LIFE we're talking about. I have taken on the task of disposing of the climbing communities ropes. It is a daunting challenge, but I get great satisfaction out of knowing I am keeping my fellow brethren safe. I have set up an old rope retirement community in my gear room. You can send any rope that you fall on to me. PM me for the address.
RR
P.S. Mammut and Edelwiess are particularly suspect. If you have ony of these you should not wait until you fall on it. You should send it immeditely to me. Particulalrly if it is the double dry, bicolor, 9.8mm, 70m variety.
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alx
Jul 11, 2007, 4:49 PM
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cgesek wrote: The pamphlet that came with my 10mm Mammut/EMS Promo rope says "Immediate, mandatory replacement is necessary after a hard fall (fall factor >=1), extreme mechanical, or thermal damage, etc." Is this true of all ropes? Is it overly cautious? Would most climbers retire a rope after a factor 1 fall?
So DID you take a fall of over factor 1 or is this a rhetorical question?
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greenketch
Jul 11, 2007, 5:11 PM
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Teo thoughts from the OP question. Did you actually take the FF1. Anything up in there kinda makes one question stuff a bit. The other is an observation that makes me wonder if this is a change from the manufactures. All of the previous ropes I have purchased had a similar clause. It recomended replacement on any time one took a fall thatapproached FF2. To now say over FF1 is a significant change.
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rgold
Jul 11, 2007, 6:29 PM
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As an additional consideration for Sterlingjim's analysis, it may be worth noting that the maximum rope tension developed in stopping a factor-one fall approaches 80% of the UIAA impact maximum. In other words, in terms of maximum rope tension, a factor-one event is way more than half as severe as a factor-two event.
Given the anecdotal history we have about climbing ropes breaking, it seems unlikely that your rope would break catching, say, another factor-one fall. But we also know, without much precision, that catching falls (as well as many other aspects of climbing life) stiffens a rope. So I guess what you are faced with deciding is whether you want to risk using a rope that may be far stiffer than originally, with the implications this has for loads on both body and protection.
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rangerrob
Jul 11, 2007, 7:05 PM
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You know, everyone here is talking about a factor 1 fall as if it is a rarity. It's not that hard to do. It means falling the same distance as rope is paid out. So if you have 20 feet of rope out and you fall 20 feet, then it is a factor 1 fall. This is hard to do while climbing off the ground or big ledge, becuase it means that you will probably deck and not weight the rope. But climbing off the belay you could easily accomplish this, and I have....on more than one occasion. Climb up 5 or 10 feet, place a piece of gear, climb up to a crux that is 6 or 7 feet above the gear and fall. Viola! you are going to have a facotr 1 fall. I did this on Le Teton in the Gunks. I don't think it is as critical as they would have you believe. But then again, I am not a physicist. It's kinda like the diamond industry suggesting that you spend 3 months salary on an engagement ring....of course that's what they reccomend, they want you to buy more diamond!
RR
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cgesek
Jul 11, 2007, 7:15 PM
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In response to those who asked, I haven't taken any falls on this rope. I bought the rope new and flipped through the "manual" and was suprised at the warning. I had assumed a FF1 to be half as severe as a FF2. Rgold indicates otherwise. I am relatively new to leading and don't intend to take such severe falls anytime soon. It is an interesting discussion, however.
-Chris
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jt512
Jul 11, 2007, 8:16 PM
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rangerrob wrote: I have taken on the task of disposing of the climbing communities ropes. It is a daunting challenge, but I get great satisfaction out of knowing I am keeping my fellow brethren safe. I have set up an old rope retirement community in my gear room. You can send any rope that you fall on to me. PM me for the address.
This joke stopped being funny about 10 years ago.
Jay
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jgloporto
Jul 11, 2007, 8:35 PM
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cgesek wrote: I am relatively new to leading and don't intend to take such severe falls anytime soon. -Chris
If only it were that easy....
Hitting the ground is so unpleasant and not hitting the ground is so expensive. But I can't remember the last time I intended to whip.
My approach is usually something along these lines:
:thinking:
Hmmm, the 5.11 crux looks tricky but if I can't stick it, I'll just aid through...
:2 minutes later:
Hey, this is pretty pumpy....
:2 seconds later:
Better get the aiders out.
:1 second later:
FALLING!!!!!
:less than 1 second later:
Hey, how'd John get above me and how'd my lunch get below me?... Wait a tic! The chick on the line next to me has a really nice butt!
(This post was edited by jgloporto on Jul 11, 2007, 8:37 PM)
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michaeld16
Jul 11, 2007, 8:47 PM
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when someone takes a huge fall, like 1/2 the rope length or even 1/4 the rope length, the dynamics of the rope are spread out more than a shorter fall which can be harder on equipment due to less rope.
w/ a good dynamic belay the rope should hold up longer and so should the shock on cams or draws and pitons n * bolts n what knot
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cracklover
Jul 11, 2007, 9:14 PM
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I don't know what kind of rope that is, but if it's anything like the two Mammut 10mm ropes that are shown on their website (Eternity and Galaxy) it should start out with an impact force around 9kN, and should be rated to 7-11 UIAA falls.
With that said, if I took a > FF1 on it, I'd inspect it very closely, and then if it looks okay, retire it to the gym and to sport climbing use only.
But that's just me.
GO
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rangerrob
Jul 12, 2007, 2:19 AM
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Jay, I wasn't joking dude. I am dead serious.
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sterlingjim
Jul 12, 2007, 2:56 AM
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rangerrob wrote: Jay, I wasn't joking dude. I am dead serious.
Well then I have a couple thousand pounds of used rope for you for free. You pay the shipping.
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