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Carnage
Aug 29, 2007, 4:54 PM
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you gotta B.A.R.K. the system!!!
maybe now she will pay attention in PE class.... oh wait she probably cant participate in PE for the rest of her life....
Im going to hell for sure
(This post was edited by Carnage on Aug 29, 2007, 4:54 PM)
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binrat
Aug 29, 2007, 5:12 PM
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Carnage wrote: you gotta B.A.R.K. the system!!! maybe now she will pay attention in PE class.... oh wait she probably cant participate in PE for the rest of her life.... Im going to hell for sure
Yes you are, just make sure you take your fav drink.
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reg
Aug 29, 2007, 5:31 PM
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unbelievable!
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carabiner96
Aug 29, 2007, 5:37 PM
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Sucks they took the walls out.
That said, i do a bit of group guiding, and while after ground school I let them belay each other with a "stacker", I make sure the kids know that they absolutely cannot leave the ground until i personally inspect their setup.
That's second nature to me, but I know a lot of phys ed teachers have a climbing wall thrown at them with little or no training. While they do the best they can, I have a feeling that the case here was just someone who isn't used to or trained to manage groups of climbers.
*granted, I only take groups outside, but that practice should be standard for at least the first couple of classes. I wonder if this was her first or second time climbing?
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majid_sabet
Aug 29, 2007, 5:42 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: Sucks they took the walls out. That said, i do a bit of group guiding, and while after ground school I let them belay each other with a "stacker", I make sure the kids know that they absolutely cannot leave the ground until i personally inspect their setup. That's second nature to me, but I know a lot of phys ed teachers have a climbing wall thrown at them with little or no training. While they do the best they can, I have a feeling that the case here was just someone who isn't used to or trained to manage groups of climbers. *granted, I only take groups outside, but that practice should be standard for at least the first couple of classes. I wonder if this was her first or second time climbing?
You always check them yourself or you also have a backup person ?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Aug 29, 2007, 5:43 PM)
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carabiner96
Aug 29, 2007, 5:49 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: carabiner96 wrote: Sucks they took the walls out. That said, i do a bit of group guiding, and while after ground school I let them belay each other with a "stacker", I make sure the kids know that they absolutely cannot leave the ground until i personally inspect their setup. That's second nature to me, but I know a lot of phys ed teachers have a climbing wall thrown at them with little or no training. While they do the best they can, I have a feeling that the case here was just someone who isn't used to or trained to manage groups of climbers. *granted, I only take groups outside, but that practice should be standard for at least the first couple of classes. I wonder if this was her first or second time climbing? You always check them yourself or you also have a backup person ?
For example, I just got back from leading a 5 day trip. For the first two days we had a "back up" belayer, someone who stacked the rope and acted as an extra set of hands incase the belayer lost control (we used only atc's). By day three, I was confident in the belaying skills, such that I didn't require they have a stacker unless the rope was really getting in the way. But during the entire trip, whenever someone was about to climb they had to check in with me first.
By the last day i didn't go and look, I just shouted "Knot tied right? Through the hardpoints? helmet on? Double backed?" and watched the climber and the belayer inspect themselves.
I only had a group of 6, but its not that time consuming to make sure your climbers check in with you before beginning a climb.
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majid_sabet
Aug 29, 2007, 5:59 PM
Post #8 of 42
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carabiner96 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: carabiner96 wrote: Sucks they took the walls out. That said, i do a bit of group guiding, and while after ground school I let them belay each other with a "stacker", I make sure the kids know that they absolutely cannot leave the ground until i personally inspect their setup. That's second nature to me, but I know a lot of phys ed teachers have a climbing wall thrown at them with little or no training. While they do the best they can, I have a feeling that the case here was just someone who isn't used to or trained to manage groups of climbers. *granted, I only take groups outside, but that practice should be standard for at least the first couple of classes. I wonder if this was her first or second time climbing? You always check them yourself or you also have a backup person ? For example, I just got back from leading a 5 day trip. For the first two days we had a "back up" belayer, someone who stacked the rope and acted as an extra set of hands incase the belayer lost control (we used only atc's). By day three, I was confident in the belaying skills, such that I didn't require they have a stacker unless the rope was really getting in the way. But during the entire trip, whenever someone was about to climb they had to check in with me first. By the last day i didn't go and look, I just shouted "Knot tied right? Through the hardpoints? helmet on? Double backed?" and watched the climber and the belayer inspect themselves. I only had a group of 6, but its not that time consuming to make sure your climbers check in with you before beginning a climb.
I can see how things may go wrong without been detected and I wonder if adding a small cord and a biner in addition to fig8 will work in case they forget to tie the knot or in an event that knot comes apart.
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kriso9tails
Aug 29, 2007, 7:17 PM
Post #9 of 42
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majid_sabet wrote: carabiner96 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: carabiner96 wrote: Sucks they took the walls out. That said, i do a bit of group guiding, and while after ground school I let them belay each other with a "stacker", I make sure the kids know that they absolutely cannot leave the ground until i personally inspect their setup. That's second nature to me, but I know a lot of phys ed teachers have a climbing wall thrown at them with little or no training. While they do the best they can, I have a feeling that the case here was just someone who isn't used to or trained to manage groups of climbers. *granted, I only take groups outside, but that practice should be standard for at least the first couple of classes. I wonder if this was her first or second time climbing? You always check them yourself or you also have a backup person ? For example, I just got back from leading a 5 day trip. For the first two days we had a "back up" belayer, someone who stacked the rope and acted as an extra set of hands incase the belayer lost control (we used only atc's). By day three, I was confident in the belaying skills, such that I didn't require they have a stacker unless the rope was really getting in the way. But during the entire trip, whenever someone was about to climb they had to check in with me first. By the last day i didn't go and look, I just shouted "Knot tied right? Through the hardpoints? helmet on? Double backed?" and watched the climber and the belayer inspect themselves. I only had a group of 6, but its not that time consuming to make sure your climbers check in with you before beginning a climb. I can see how things may go wrong without been detected and I wonder if adding a small cord and a biner in addition to fig8 will work in case they forget to tie the knot or in an event that knot comes apart.
We should also make sure to pin their mittens to their jackets and stitch their names into their underwear. O_o
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sinrtb
Aug 29, 2007, 7:33 PM
Post #10 of 42
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From the sounds of it either she was tied in through her gear loops or her chalkbag loop (? the one on the back of the harness). Anything else would have held. It even sounds like from the article the knot itself was correct. I would hope anyone on this forum would immediately notice that someone's rope was tied in the incorrect place.
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majid_sabet
Aug 29, 2007, 8:29 PM
Post #12 of 42
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epoch wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I can see how things may go wrong without been detected and I wonder if adding a small cord and a biner in addition to fig8 will work in case they forget to tie the knot or in an event that knot comes apart. ... Here, I'll say it: Majid, STFU. You're not there. It's not your group. If a qualified leader/guide makes a decision about the readiness of his/her clients then it is thier decision. Next thing you know, you'll come to the conclusion that it is SAFER to just not climb at all. That mitigates all risks, doesn't it?
ohh yaa
qualified leader
qualified guide
= qualified fuc8up for rest of the climbing students who have to wonder why their climbing wall got dumped.
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stefanohatari
Aug 29, 2007, 9:25 PM
Post #13 of 42
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Solution: harnesses without gear loops, which is what most commercial climbing walls and educational programs use, I assume.
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sinrtb
Aug 29, 2007, 9:38 PM
Post #14 of 42
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stefanohatari wrote: Solution: harnesses without gear loops, which is what most commercial climbing walls and educational programs use, I assume.
I don't think i have been to a commercial climbing wall that does not have gear loops on their harnesses. This is the first time I have ever heard it suggested otherwise.
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climbingaggie03
Aug 29, 2007, 10:14 PM
Post #15 of 42
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I've spent alot of time at several different wall/climbing programs and I've only seen a few harnesses with gear loops. Most of the time they don't have gear loops, I've always thought that it was a cost issue cause people top roping at a gym have no need of gear loops and that's less material on the harness = cheaper harness or more money for the manufacturer. It does kinda make sense from a safety standpoint though, especially considering this incident.
Most of the harnesses I've seen at programs are the misty mountain fudge harness, or the petzl harness with the single tie in point. Neither of these harnesses have gear loops.
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pylonhead
Aug 29, 2007, 10:26 PM
Post #16 of 42
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sinrtb wrote: stefanohatari wrote: Solution: harnesses without gear loops, which is what most commercial climbing walls and educational programs use, I assume. I don't think i have been to a commercial climbing wall that does not have gear loops on their harnesses. This is the first time I have ever heard it suggested otherwise.
Well, for a school program that only has a top-rope wall, this would be a good solution. If there is indoor sport climbing as well, perhaps a good choice would be the safety harnesses that have reinforced gear loops that are rated to hold falls.
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norushnomore
Aug 29, 2007, 10:28 PM
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Majid, sounds like you are progressing quite nicely in learning new climbing skills. Now you know the importance of the proper tie in.
Just a bit more effort and you will be able to get off the ground in your maiden climbing voyage
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majid_sabet
Aug 29, 2007, 10:30 PM
Post #18 of 42
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pylonhead wrote: sinrtb wrote: stefanohatari wrote: Solution: harnesses without gear loops, which is what most commercial climbing walls and educational programs use, I assume. I don't think i have been to a commercial climbing wall that does not have gear loops on their harnesses. This is the first time I have ever heard it suggested otherwise. Well, for a school program that only has a top-rope wall, this would be a good solution. If there is indoor sport climbing as well, perhaps a good choice would be the safety harnesses that have reinforced gear loops that are rated to hold falls.
One of the best option is to use commercial harness with chest loop enforcement, that way you are clipped in from two points.
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majid_sabet
Aug 29, 2007, 10:35 PM
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norushnomore wrote: Majid, sounds like you are progressing quite nicely in learning new climbing skills. Now you know the importance of the proper tie in. Just a bit more effort and you will be able to get off the ground in your maiden climbing voyage
I am getting very excited . I am finally going to do real top rope climb outside of my gym
ohh boy, can't wait to become 5.8 leader
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extreme_actuary
Aug 29, 2007, 10:49 PM
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I don't understand, she tied a figure 8 through her gear loop? Was she standing backwards? Did she have her harness on backwards? Was the gear loop a little plastic thing?
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trenchdigger
Aug 29, 2007, 10:58 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I am getting very excited . I am finally going to do real top rope climb outside of my gym ohh boy, can't wait to become 5.8 leader
Whooooaaaa... slow down there, big guy. You've got to learn to walk before you can run.
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majid_sabet
Aug 29, 2007, 11:03 PM
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trenchdigger wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I am getting very excited . I am finally going to do real top rope climb outside of my gym ohh boy, can't wait to become 5.8 leader Whooooaaaa... slow down there, big guy. You've got to learn to walk before you can run.
I can't wait till I belay you Trench . I will show how good I am in belaying via ATC.
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rocknice2
Aug 29, 2007, 11:34 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: I can't wait till I belay you Trench . I will show how good I am in belaying via ATC.
This is very dangerous as you might be distracted by your FF or MA calculations and trench the Trench. Then they'll close The Valley for all time.
I recommend a GriGri with prussic backup and a foot belay just to make sure.
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majid_sabet
Aug 29, 2007, 11:42 PM
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rocknice2 wrote: majid_sabet wrote: I can't wait till I belay you Trench . I will show how good I am in belaying via ATC. This is very dangerous as you might be distracted by your FF or MA calculations and trench the Trench. Then they'll close The Valley for all time. I recommend a GriGri with prussic backup and a foot belay just to make sure.
There are few RCers who I love to belay and trust me, Trench is one of them however, if I ever wanted to belay you, I will make sure that all 10 x safety factors are in place with another 5 x backup so you should feel good about yourself.
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