I know this is probably going to sounds like a total noob question, but my partner and I have been discussing this for a few weeks now and have decided to get a Bible's answer once and for all.

If someone leads a route and places all the gear, then that is a trad route. But what if the next climber also leads the route and uses the pre-placed trad gear; is that trad or sport?

I can see the merits of both. Trad because the gear is still not bolts. Sport because the original climber did not place the gear (that's the key here: the gear was not placed by the climber using the gear).

I'm curious because I've been calling all my leads on his gear placements sport. He's been calling his leads on my gear placement trad (we switch leads a lot. Sometimes it leads to black eyes and swiss army knife stabbings, but we have a system that works). BTW - me calling his gear sport and him calling mine trad is absolutely no reflection on the quality of our placements. That's another story altogether.

Thoughts?

Plugging your gear in his crack and vice versa is neither trad nor sport.

It's only trad if you are placing the gear.

my 0.2c

>Cam

BIBLE'S ANSWER! I SAID BIBLE'S!!!!

Thou shalt not plug your gear in another man's crack, tis neither trad nor sport...

does it really MATTER what you call it?

"sport" and "trad" are both sport terms, anyway.

the type of climbing you did is not straight-up, old-fashioned 5th class...but if you clip a fixed wired nut on an otherwise 5th-class route, well, it's still 5th class.

it's an interesting (to me) grey area you've described. kind of analogous to seiging, where you pull the rope in between efforts.

i think a big part of the reason these styles are defined, is so that climbers can judge exactly WHO climbed WHAT, and HOW? fixing nuts, as you've described, is a bit of a step backward in this regard, as nobody else will ever place only the same gear in the identical placements. but it's ETHICALLY ok, as long as you clean up your mess. it's only a style issue, and doesn't affect anybody...UNLESS you do it on a first ascent, and then report it to the guidebook author as "free", 5.11, or whatever. if you did that, you would mis-represent what you actually did.

...my leads on his gear placements sport. He's been calling his leads on my gear placement trad (we switch leads a lot. ...

I'm confused; how is it that you're switching leads to climb something the other has already lead? Is this some kind of strange punishment, a.k.a. learning experience?

According to the Bible we are living in the age of grace and are no longer under the Law (Christ's sacrifice having fulfilled the Law) therefor you can call it whatever you want. Sporty-trad? Practice trad, portable sport? I would just call it climbing.

Sorry, to clarify: this is really only intended for single pitch stuff. So one of us comes down, we pull the rope, and the other goes up. Obviously, that's a bit harder on multi-pitch stuff.

That is the Bible!! Sodom and Gamora is from the Bible (I think.. or was that one of those fucked up Stephen King short stories...)

Just call it a pinkpoint.

Wait a minute? Sodom and Gamora are on RR.com? I thought Al Gore invented the internet in the 1960s. Weren't those other guys dead by the late 1950s?

(NB. My understanding of theology comes solely from Soap Box.)

If someone leads a route and places all the gear, then that is a trad route. But what if the next climber also leads the route and uses the pre-placed trad gear; is that trad or sport?

I agree...oh and yes "Dream Catcher" was pinkpointed :-)

Oh so you're saying its better to rape and kill children than it is to let them read this bible?

DMT