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vegastradguy
Oct 7, 2007, 4:29 PM
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mock leading is one way to teach someone to lead. effectively, it means having someone on a top rope while they 'lead' the pitch. so, if you can put a top rope on a route, you can mock lead it. if that means the belayer needs to be above the leader, thats no big deal.
that said, i dont hold much stock in mock leading. when you first start leading on gear, you shouldnt be leading at a level where falling is big concern, nor should you be leading anything where gear is weird. so, if the new leader has done enough seconding and enough ground practice, they know what good gear looks like and if they are new, they'll be sewing it up, so between those two, if a fall should occur, the gear will hold.
in other words- if your 13 year old has seconded enough, has a strong grasp of what good pro is, and you feel comfortable letting her, put her on the sharp end on a local 5.4 and see how she does. make sure she can put a piece in every two or three feet and i'd be she'll be fine. make sure to inspect her gear until you feel comfortable not doing so, and on every lead, give her feedback on every piece, even if its good.
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kane_schutzman
Oct 7, 2007, 5:03 PM
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I thought about mock leading when I started but its just alot of work. If you "do" mocklead, remember to leave enough slack in the toprope system so that if she where to fall that the gear would be weighted first and you can see if it holds or not. The toprope is just a backup. Anyways, what I did was aid a bit on gear, bounce test low to the ground. You prolly already knew that though.
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minexploration
Oct 7, 2007, 5:28 PM
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The only problem with your explanation kane is that you would have to have two belayers (sp?) one for the top rope and one for the lead climbing.
Currently my wife and I are learning to trad climb. We do a ton of mock leading (we like to be comfortable and not stressed when we learn ie sharp end), but since there are only two of us the only rope we belay is the top rope. I like learning this way. Other people have other ideas on how to learn, but to each his/her own. I think just being outside and climbing is the best part.
(This post was edited by minexploration on Oct 7, 2007, 5:29 PM)
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notch
Oct 7, 2007, 6:12 PM
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minexploration wrote: Currently my wife and I are learning to trad climb. We do a ton of mock leading (we like to be comfortable and not stressed when we learn ie sharp end)
Therein lies the failure of mock leading. Being on the sharp end is inherently uncomfortable and stressful, and the only way to overcome that is to do it. All that placing gear on top rope does is teach one to place gear, which can be done far more efficiently and effectively untied, on the ground. Currently your daughter isn't learning how to lead, she's learning how to place gear.
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gblauer
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Oct 7, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Another option is to get your daughter to place all your gear while standing on the ground, using rock features that are within 5-6 feet off the ground.
It's critical that she learn to recognize a strong placement with all types of gear. This is something that can be done without having to set up TRs etc. This is a drill that should be done several times, each time, you can check her gear and have her do some bounce testing on it.
By the way, it you do mock lead, you don't really need another belayer. Just belay her on the TR, and let her drag up the other rope.
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chossmonkey
Oct 7, 2007, 7:33 PM
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In my opinion mock leading is kinda pointless and a waste of time. As stated, first leads should be on routes that they won't fall off of and offer lots of protection opportunities. In reality they should be placing so much gear they are toproping anyway.
If you are having Frank guide your daughter and teach her to lead you have nothing to worry about. He's topnotch.
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kindasleepy
Oct 7, 2007, 8:18 PM
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When I mock lead, I set a single fixed line above the climb (dynamic climbing rope). I clip into this with an ascender (WC Ropeman) to my belay loop. The second system is your standard lead; placing gear and clipping into a second rope. You only need one belay and have a solid backup system. The only caution is to make sure the two lines don't mixed up (one stays left the other right).
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fobnicat
Oct 7, 2007, 8:34 PM
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I recently began trad climbing. I did one mock lead before realizing it was pointless. Pointless for me that is. If you are serious about continuing to have your daughter mock-lead, it IS possible to do as Kane suggested. That is how I did my one mock-lead.
As kane said, the toprope shoudl have a good bit of slack in it. You can either belay both the toprope and the lead rope through an ATC focusing mainly on keeping the lead rope locked off at all times, or run the top rope through a Gri-gri. Because the toprope does not have to be taught, you will be fine if you are not able to pull slack at all times...
I do not recommend this for someone who is not comfortable doing so. It is a bit more dangerous than belaying a single rope.. but it is possible...
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studclimber
Oct 8, 2007, 1:59 AM
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Notch nailed it right on the head. mock leading slows the learning process down. while it does make a person who is new to leading on trad gear feel more comfortable, it does not teach them what leading really is. they should jump right into it. just my opinion :)
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hiyapokey
Oct 8, 2007, 2:50 AM
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Not having led yet I can't answer the best way to teach or learn. I do want to point out that a thirteen year old may need some extra time going through the motions of the leading process to demonstrate she has the whole procedure wired. I know that there are thirteen year olds who could be competant leading, but doesn't leading trad have a lot of tough judgement calls. I am certainly not judging the OP for teaching his kid to lead trad. That is a decision that I'm sure he was very careful about making. My point is she's thirteen, let her learn to set gear on the ground and also learn to manage the lead rope on a route while safely on toprope. If it slows down the learning process so be it. She's thirteen and has many years of safe climbing ahead of her.
(This post was edited by hiyapokey on Oct 8, 2007, 2:55 AM)
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dr_monkey
Oct 8, 2007, 4:03 AM
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There is one (and there might be more) useful application of mock leading that I have used. To give the new leader a good idea of how to space gear, wait until they are gaining a little confidence, and put them on mock lead. After they place either a well spaced or too far spaced piece (depending on the point you want to make) after they pull up rope, but before they clip tell them to stop.
Now lock off the lead rope, and lower the leader on the TR until the lead rope takes their weight on the previous piece. This can be very eye opening. Make sure to point out the effect of rope stretch (maybe feed out a little more line.)
A word of caution! Be sure that you know the personality of the leader and how they will react as well as what the effect you want to have on them is.
i.e. "Look how clean that fall was! Do you feel that would have been safe? Why? Why not?"
or "You just decked on that ledge, what do you think of that? How might you prevent that in the future?"
This can help some people to learn to realistically gauge a fall and plan accordingly.
Good luck with your daughter, I wish someone had taught me to lead when I was still young, strong, and fearless <sigh>.
Cheers,
DRS
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healyje
Oct 8, 2007, 7:49 AM
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notch wrote: All that placing gear on top rope does is teach one to place gear, which can be done far more efficiently and effectively untied, on the ground. Currently your daughter isn't learning how to lead, she's learning how to place gear.
Exactly, well said. Mock leading is an entirely counterproductive activity from my perspective. That said, as a father I'd a discussion of 13 year olds is a bit of a gray area. Some may be ready to lead, some not. And, paradoxially, the seconding is still far and away the best way to learn to lead. Do enough of it and sooner or later most folks who stick with it will naturally want to start moving up to the front of the line.
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kindasleepy
Oct 8, 2007, 9:51 AM
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I disagree strongly with those that say mock lead is a waste of time, it is very valuable. First, learning to climb should not be about wasting time or feeling uncomfortable. It should be about learning proper technique and management skills prior to trusting your life to the very skills you are learning.
I learned to lead using a fixed line mock. I would climb the line placing gear and build an anchor and then belay the guide up. He would then second, assess my placements, draw choices and anchor, all without having to rely on that system for safety.
I learned a lot more than just 'placing gear'. It taught me rope management skills and anchor creation all with a sense of being on the sharp end but with the safety of a fixed line. I now climb trad regularly with confidence without having to had a shit scare initiation.
I hired an AMGA certified rock guide to teach me trad climbing and this was the system he used. He has been a guide for 17 years. It does get much more 'expert' than that.
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healyje
Oct 8, 2007, 10:43 AM
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kindasleepy wrote: I hired an AMGA certified rock guide to teach me trad climbing and this was the system he used. He has been a guide for 17 years. It does get much more 'expert' than that.
Actually, it does get much much better than that. Many of us have been teaching / learning to lead long before the AMGA ever existed. Guiding is a commercial venture which by definition is highly concerned with liability. The systems and techniques they use serve that master first and learning second - hence, mock leading is high on the list of things you'll find many of them doing.
That doesn't change the fact that it mocking merely skirts around the edge of the very thing which is imperative to learn. Learning to use the gear can happen on the ground and while seconding, but the essence of leading is only learned on lead.
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epoch
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Oct 8, 2007, 11:20 AM
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notch wrote: minexploration wrote: Currently my wife and I are learning to trad climb. We do a ton of mock leading (we like to be comfortable and not stressed when we learn ie sharp end) Therein lies the failure of mock leading. Being on the sharp end is inherently uncomfortable and stressful, and the only way to overcome that is to do it. All that placing gear on top rope does is teach one to place gear, which can be done far more efficiently and effectively untied, on the ground. Currently your daughter isn't learning how to lead, she's learning how to place gear.
Also work on your mocking skills. I mock my leaders all the time.
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robbovius
Oct 8, 2007, 11:21 AM
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notch wrote: minexploration wrote: Currently my wife and I are learning to trad climb. We do a ton of mock leading (we like to be comfortable and not stressed when we learn ie sharp end) .
exactly. leading involves a deveoping fear mangament skills that top roping can't come close to matching. accept the when you lead, you will be scared, and that you're going to have to function anyway. mock leading is a waste of time. the only way to really learn to lead, is to do it.
On the other hand, having thought about it a bit, I would not force any of my kids to learn to lead the way I did.
(This post was edited by robbovius on Oct 8, 2007, 1:44 PM)
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stymingersfink
Oct 9, 2007, 5:26 AM
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hiyapokey wrote: Not having led yet I can't answer the best way to teach or learn.
Couple years back, there was a young girl who was getting in her second lead (iirc) on the Coffin Crack (5.9), while being belayed by her dad. The first thirty feet has some more challenging gear placements until reaching the crack proper.
Long story short, she slipped and fell above her third piece, a couple of pieces pulled and she decked, resulting in a somewhat minor injury. AFAIK, she's back leading now, though with a hard lesson learned early.
Get the placements down in "groundschool", get some leads placing gear on stuff you're not worried about falling from. The natural progression of things will have you climbing harder stuff when you're ready.
My first summer trad leading was spent roped soloing a 3-pitch 5.7. Must have climbed the thing 25-30 times that summer. It was all about placing the gear, less about scaring myself. That's what ice and aid climbing is for.
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hiyapokey
Oct 9, 2007, 4:39 PM
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I have three children and know something about how kids can amaze you with their judgment calls and in the next minute make you wonder if they shouldn't be institutionalized.
My comment was based on that knowledge, so thats why I made the disclaimer. My main point being shouldn't the best known method for teaching a child be different than the best known method for teaching an adult. Learning leading on top rope seems a lot safer to me. If it is less safe then perhaps a different method should be used, but I'll leave that to the more experienced guys here to answer.
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 9, 2007, 4:52 PM
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hiyapokey wrote: I have three children and know something about how kids can amaze you with their judgment calls and in the next minute make you wonder if they shouldn't be institutionalized. My comment was based on that knowledge, so thats why I made the disclaimer. My main point being shouldn't the best known method for teaching a child be different than the best known method for teaching an adult. Learning leading on top rope seems a lot safer to me. If it is less safe then perhaps a different method should be used, but I'll leave that to the more experienced guys here to answer.
I am against mock leading, but I also agree with you. There is a different mindset when teaching kids. Your number one priority until they are old enough to make decisions for themselves is to keep them safe. If that means it takes them a little longer to be a good leader, then so be it. They are not just little adults.
By age 13, you should have a sense of whether they have they are ready or not, if it's your own child...but I would always err on the side of caution.
Josh
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markc
Oct 9, 2007, 5:00 PM
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kindasleepy wrote: I learned to lead using a fixed line mock...I learned a lot more than just 'placing gear'. It taught me rope management skills and anchor creation all with a sense of being on the sharp end but with the safety of a fixed line.
You cannot develop a sense of being on the sharp end if you're on a toprope. You can get familiar with looking for protection while climbing, placing gear from a stance, and some management of the system. It may be useful to do this for a pitch or two to transition from ground school to an actual lead. Beyond that, I think you're just delaying the commitment. It's that commitment that makes leading on gear what it is.
I learned from someone that encouraged starting on easy routes, placing lots of pro, and getting milage. The focus should be on dialing in solid placements and getting familiar with the system. As you progress, you can either challenge yourself based upon the difficulty of the route, the protection difficulty, the length, etc. I was taught not to push more than one of those at once. By the time you're getting on routes where falling is a real possibility, you have the experience to back it up. I think starting that process is infinitely more valuable than mock leading for any significant period of time.
(This applies to mock leading in general. I have no experience with children in the age range in question.)
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kindasleepy
Oct 9, 2007, 10:08 PM
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There are many things to be learned on mock lead that can not be learned in ground school, primarily rope management. The essence of lead trad would be placing gear, connecting it to the rope in a manner that is safe, minimizes rope drag and creating an anchor at the end of the pitch. All those thing can be learned with a mock lead.
It doesn't have to be all or none, responsibility of leading can be done a graduated fashion.
I know that there are many people out there who have been climbing many years and are excellent resources. AMGA guides have specific training for teaching and ensuring safety. Liability is certainly an issue which requires them be be careful.
I believe that safety should be our highest priority especially when teaching newcomers to climbing. I am sorry but I can not fault someone for being TOO careful.
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nepaclimber
Oct 9, 2007, 10:20 PM
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i started leading about 3 weeks ago, and my partner let me follow him on a few routes explained how the gear worked and put me on a 5.5 and then a 5.6, he pretty much got me on something i would be comfortable free-soloing, did it up scared the shite out of myself but now i know what im doing and just need to be more comfortable with recognizing the size of gear i will need for the placement and so on. and after a few leads and you know she can do it tell her to take a small fall on something or put her on a climb she might fall on with great pro right before the crux, the only way to get fully comfortable on gear is to fall on it. obviously use your judgment with what i have said i have 0 experiance with kids
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stymingersfink
Oct 9, 2007, 10:37 PM
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markc wrote: You cannot develop a sense of being on the sharp end if you're on a toprope. You can get familiar with looking for protection while climbing, placing gear from a stance, and some management of the system.
This is what being a "second" for a season or two should teach any astute observer interested in getting on the sharp end themselves.
markc wrote: I learned from someone that encouraged starting on easy routes, placing lots of pro, and getting milage. The focus should be on dialing in solid placements and getting familiar with the system. As you progress, you can either challenge yourself based upon the difficulty of the route, the protection difficulty, the length, etc. I was taught not to push more than one of those at once. By the time you're getting on routes where falling is a real possibility, you have the experience to back it up. I think starting that process is infinitely more valuable than mock leading for any significant period of time. (This applies to mock leading in general. I have no experience with children in the age range in question.)
That's indeed the basic rule, and I would think it would apply uniformly across the ages, as it deals primarily with building enough experience (without injuring one's self) to aid in good decision making. IME, kids as a rule have a taste for risk untempered by experience (at least I did growing up). It would seem to me (as a child who survived growing up in an often dangerous environment) that perhaps the best you could do is provide them with as much experience as you can while building the basis for good decision making. If you haven't done this for your children yet, they probably have no business being on the sharp end.
Remember, wisdom comes from experience. Experience comes from making poor decisions.
kindasleepy wrote: There are many things to be learned on mock lead that can not be learned in ground school, primarily rope management. The essence of lead trad would be placing gear, connecting it to the rope in a manner that is safe, minimizes rope drag and creating an anchor at the end of the pitch. All those thing can be learned with a mock lead.
IMO, the child will know when the time is right to lead. If they get on the sharp end and decide to back off, don't push them to continue on. Examine their decision making process with them once they have reached terra firma, then discuss their options for next time.
When you've seen them consistently build anchors that you'd whip on without a second thought, perhaps then it's time to move past single-pitch trad climbs with bolted anchors. But only if they're up for it.
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healyje
Oct 9, 2007, 11:28 PM
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kindasleepy wrote: The essence of lead trad would be placing gear, connecting it to the rope in a manner that is safe, minimizes rope drag and creating an anchor at the end of the pitch. All those thing can be learned with a mock lead.
No, the essence of leading trad is connecting your will to your emotions in a manner which preserves observation and insight, your decision making abilities, and harnesses fear for productive ends.
Look, a great deal of these sorts of discussions always revolve around placing gear; and guess what? The very best way to learn to place gear is by cleaning it while seconding as many different competent and creative leaders as possible. The ideal is seconding one partner on many routes and several partners on the same route to see both how those leaders individually respond to different routes and how different leaders respond to the same route. All other methods of learning to place pro are considerably less efficient in the long run to seconding great leaders.
In reply to: I know that there are many people out there who have been climbing many years and are excellent resources. AMGA guides have specific training for teaching and ensuring safety. Liability is certainly an issue which requires them be be careful. I believe that safety should be our highest priority especially when teaching newcomers to climbing. I am sorry but I can not fault someone for being TOO careful.
I can, and do; especially when 'safety' (liability) causes commercial entitites to use teaching methods that are primarily designed to protect the teacher rather than the student - often at the expense of the student's education. And in my opinion, safety should never be the highest priority in climbing - climbing should be - rather safety should be a systemic and parasympathetic aspect of doing it. But, climbing is not and should not be 'safe' or risk-free. Folks seeking risk-free entertainment shouldn't be trad leading at any level.
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