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uso5590
Oct 19, 2007, 1:57 AM
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I am interested in climbing a few toprope routes that are only accessible from the top. My question is... if the top rope anchor is hanging over the edge of the cliff, how do i weight the achor while rappelling without free falling the first few feet?
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coastal_climber
Oct 19, 2007, 2:01 AM
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You have a backup to bolts or a tree back form the clif edge, while you set up the anchor. You set up your toprope anchor, feed the rope through and toss it down. There's really no need to rappel. And would it be possible for you to explain it better?
>Cam
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uso5590
Oct 19, 2007, 2:09 AM
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to explain better... the only way to the bottom of the cliff is from the top. To rappell down. I only have one rope, so i have to use my toprope anchor to reach the bottom, and the anchor point is 1 foot below the lip on the top of the cliff. Seems as though i would have nothing supporting me until i was below the power point.
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coastal_climber
Oct 19, 2007, 2:21 AM
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So there is no way of getting to the bottom? If not, you will have to set your anchor, feed the rope through, set up for rappel, with prusik. Then get lowered from above down until you are on rappel.
>Cam
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uso5590
Oct 19, 2007, 2:23 AM
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Well thats clear as mud! anyone willing to provide a bit more detail? Thanks!
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coastal_climber
Oct 19, 2007, 2:27 AM
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Do you know how to build an anchor? You either need to get an experienced partner, or take some courses.
>Cam
(This post was edited by coastal_climber on Oct 19, 2007, 2:31 AM)
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coastal_climber
Oct 19, 2007, 2:38 AM
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Take a look at this website. http://www.ryanojerio.20m.com/...hor%20Principles.htm
You build and attach yourself to the belay anchor, then you are lowered down to it, then you are taken off belay, then you rappel down. If you can't figure this out, how are you getting your belayer down as well?
>Cam
(This post was edited by coastal_climber on Oct 19, 2007, 2:43 AM)
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carabiner96
Oct 19, 2007, 3:57 AM
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uso5590 wrote: Well thats clear as mud! anyone willing to provide a bit more detail? Thanks!
You first. Cam's answer was pretty much it; pre rig your rappell and prussic down to the master point. Are you belaying from above since you can't get down to the bottom?
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blueeyedclimber
Oct 19, 2007, 1:32 PM
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There are a bunch of ways to do this, but if you are asking and not being able to figure it out, then chances are you won't understand any answer given to you without pictures. Probably the only one you will understand is this: 1. Set up toprope anchor
2. Pull up rope and put yourself on rappel (use a rappel backup, if you don't know what that is, then go buy a book and learn)
3. Batman down your anchor until it is possible to weight the rappel.
From your post, it seems that you would rather not do this, because it is a little nerve-racking. I have a couple questions. What are you using for the anchor, static line or webbing? How long is your rope and how high is the cliff?
Also, there are a few safety concerns that may come up with a cliff such as this. What if you or your friend can't make it up? Do you know how to ascend a rope? Is it a sea-cliff? If so, what is the tide situation at the bottom? It is also sometimes preferable to belay from the top, which requires the anchor to be set up differently.
Be safe, Josh
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desertwanderer81
Oct 19, 2007, 3:46 PM
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What *I* do, is
1) set-up my anchor.
2) pick up my rope so that I can clip in for the repell.
3) clip myself directly into my anchor with a runner or daisy chain.
4) downclimb without holding the rope
5) weight my repell and then unclip my safety.
6) repell!
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binrat
Oct 19, 2007, 3:58 PM
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Basically the same as desertwanderer81 except
3)clip myself directly into my anchor with a purcell prussik.
Binrat
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desertwanderer81
Oct 19, 2007, 4:13 PM
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Yup, it's basically all same result either way. I suppose you could just put a prussik on your rope too.
If you know how to get a weighted prussik off though....
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reg
Oct 19, 2007, 4:18 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: What *I* do, is 1) set-up my anchor. 2) pick up my rope so that I can clip in for the repell. 3) clip myself directly into my anchor with a runner or daisy chain. 4) downclimb without holding the rope 5) weight my repell and then unclip my safety. 6) repell!
i don't like the static connection to the anchor while downclimbing. if you slipped and dropped a couple feet you could really hurt yourself or break something - back, harness, sling, etc
i put myself on repel with prussic backup then downclimb to the power point.
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coastal_climber
Oct 19, 2007, 4:40 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: What *I* do, is 1) set-up my anchor. 2) pick up my rope so that I can clip in for the repell. 3) clip myself directly into my anchor with a runner or daisy chain. 4) downclimb without holding the rope 5) weight my repell and then unclip my safety. 6) repell!
No prusik?
>Cam
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Carnage
Oct 19, 2007, 4:41 PM
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i pull a bunch of rope through my rappel device, then take a jump. its kinda like bungee jumping. sometimes my huge balls swing into the rock though, kinda hurts a bit.
good thing about this technique is that you end up about half way down the cliff, so less time actually rappelling.
(side note: dont actually do this)
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desertwanderer81
Oct 19, 2007, 4:42 PM
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IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own.
I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.
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Carnage
Oct 19, 2007, 5:02 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own. I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.
quick little trip to the petzl fall simulator shows that a 75kg climber jumping onto a static rope from 2 feet up generates 17kn+ of force.
2 things that are unnerving about this.
1. Injury to climber: hope you have a really strong back to support that kind of jerking from your harness
2. Fall factor: think about this, you are doing a fall factor 2 onto a mostly static system. the only dynamic part of the system is the few inches of your climbing rope. so if your looking to ruin a rope (everything ive always read says retire your rope if you experience a NEAR FF2 fall), then go ahead, take that leap. if you want to get the FF down, do what i said above, itll get the FF closer (but not less than) 1.
edit: on second thought, if you were to pull a bunch of rope through and jump, the FF could get lower than one. since you have the rope doubled, it seems like you would have twice as much rope out as i was previously thinking. This however, would not greatly affect the logic behind either clipping directly into the anchor, or if you had a small(small = couple inches) amount of rope connecting you to your belay device. when a small amount of rope is through the device, since the static stuff in the anchor, your still experiencing a FF of close to 2
(This post was edited by Carnage on Oct 19, 2007, 5:06 PM)
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james481
Oct 19, 2007, 5:07 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own. I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.
Wasn't there an incident two or three months ago where a climber fell above an anchor he was attached to with a spectra sling and pulled the anchor, resulting in his death? IIRC, it was either on Mont Blanc or the Grand Jorasses. From what I read, he had climbed about two feet above his anchor on a static sling. He slipped, fell four feet onto the anchor, which then ripped from the impact force, sending him to his death below?
Regardless, when anchoring directly to anchors with no dynamic rope in the system, if I'm in a situation where there is any chance of falling on the anchor, I would use a Purcell tied in 7 or 8 mm perlon. The perlon stretches a bit to absorb force, and if you really generate a huge amount of force, the prussic will slip to help dissipate it.
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justroberto
Oct 19, 2007, 5:09 PM
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If you're really worried about downclimbing, do this:
1)set up your tr anchor
2)rapell off a tree (or rock/second anchor back from the cliff face) to your TR anchor.
3)tie into the anchor
4)have your partner rap all the way down, if possible
5)pull the rope and thread it through your TR anchor. be sure to tie the rope to yourself somehow before pulling it so that you don't drop it entirely during the transition.
6)rap
7)pat yourself on the back. you're now practically a multipitch sport rapeller. awesome.
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reg
Oct 19, 2007, 5:13 PM
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well - stop doing that.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 19, 2007, 5:13 PM
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Interesting food for thought, however I think there is a LITTLE stretch in the system.
Afterall, aren't you clipped in when you are doing a setup? What's the point in clipping in if there is no added safety?
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jgloporto
Oct 19, 2007, 5:49 PM
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justroberto wrote: If you're really worried about downclimbing, do this: 1)set up your tr anchor 2)rapell off a tree (or rock/second anchor back from the cliff face) to your TR anchor. 3)tie into the anchor 4)have your partner rap all the way down, if possible 5)pull the rope and thread it through your TR anchor. be sure to tie the rope to yourself somehow before pulling it so that you don't drop it entirely during the transition. 6)rap 7)pat yourself on the back. you're now practically a multipitch sport rapeller. awesome.
That was my thought...
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shimanilami
Oct 19, 2007, 6:50 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own. I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.
I once fell on my daisy while moving onto a new aid placement. Trust me, it freakin' hurt. I wasn't injured, necessarily, but I chipped a tooth and it really shook me up.
I'd recommend that you try to avoid falling on a static line from any distance.
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binrat
Oct 19, 2007, 7:13 PM
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shimanilami wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own. I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain. I once fell on my daisy while moving onto a new aid placement. Trust me, it freakin' hurt. I wasn't injured, necessarily, but I chipped a tooth and it really shook me up. I'd recommend that you try to avoid falling on a static line from any distance.
This is why I like the purcell,it will take most of the shock load before my old body does. I always rap with a prussik back-up.
binrat
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reg
Oct 19, 2007, 7:26 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: IMO you're overestimating the forces involved with a static setup falling 2 feet, but to each their own. I can't recall anyone ever getting injured by setting up with a daisy chain.
"Do not use static ropes for climbing. Static ropes stretch very little at all (0.5 to 1.5 percent or less). Forces generated in a climbing system can quickly exceed factor 2 if a static rope is used, causing grave (deadly) injuries to the climber and generating forces in the system which exceed the strength of the gear used. (a fall of as little as 4 feet on a static rope can create enough shock load to cause injury, death, or failure of climbing gear). " from flatliners.
of course - static rope has a little give, but your sling does not - so a shorter fall will do equal damage.
(This post was edited by reg on Oct 19, 2007, 7:29 PM)
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