Feb 13, 2008, 7:22 PM
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Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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The following post by other user made me wonder, how much harder do you climb on sport routes vs trad routes?
petsfed wrote:
Second, in the first post the comparison between 5.12 sport and 5.9 trad was made. Which is funny because if you consider the median of climber's abilities (vis a vis angry's "moderate" thread), you'll find that 5.9 trad leaders and 5.12 sport leaders are more or less equivalent. Wierd, huh?
I was somehow surprised of that claim because, in my experience, I know way more people able to climb 5.9 trad than 5.12 sport.
Note: to simplify let's define "harder" as the YDS number, regardless of the fact that a 5.9 trad may have nothing to do with a 5.9 sport.
Feb 13, 2008, 7:39 PM
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Re: [yokese] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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Interesting question, and looking back I don't think I hardly ever climbed a crack climb harder than 5.9, but sport climbed up to 5.11.
I don't think this was an issue of not being able to lead harder sport routes, rather an issue of the local routes I worked the most were bolted face routes, and when I'd go to Yosemite or Toulemne I was after longer moderate routes.
I can't imaging someone who can climb solid 5.12 face routes would be unable to cruise up a 5.10 or 5.11 crack route and place gear, unless their technique really sucked and mentally they really couldn't handle leading.
Feb 13, 2008, 7:42 PM
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Re: [yokese] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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I think all depends on how much time and effort you put into either discipline. Right now, I would say that my trad is about 5 letter grades lower, but I expect that to get even closer this year. The "hardest" grade I have sent in sport is 5.12b, and the hardest trad was 5.11a, but I spend a lot more time climbing trad, so I wouldn't be surprised if my next 5.12 is on gear rather than on bolts.
Feb 13, 2008, 7:49 PM
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Re: [yokese] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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yokese wrote:
The following post by other user made me wonder, how much harder do you climb on sport routes vs trad routes?
petsfed wrote:
Second, in the first post the comparison between 5.12 sport and 5.9 trad was made. Which is funny because if you consider the median of climber's abilities (vis a vis angry's "moderate" thread), you'll find that 5.9 trad leaders and 5.12 sport leaders are more or less equivalent. Wierd, huh?
I was somehow surprised of that claim because, in my experience, I know way more people able to climb 5.9 trad than 5.12 sport.
Not to be a smart-ass but that may have a lot to do with who you know and what they choose to climb.
Feb 13, 2008, 7:53 PM
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Re: [yokese] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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I have to agree with blueeyedclimber, I think it depends on how much time you devote to each. If you go from Sport to trad, you usually begin a few grades eaiser, mainly to gain skills and confidence while reducing the risk of falling. The more you climb Trad, the smaller the window gets between trad and sport. If you spend 90% of your time trad climbing, you may get real close to your sport grade. When I was climbing trad all the time, My sport grades increased as well, but not at the rate they were when I was climbing about 50/50.
If you sport climb and only occasionally trad climb, the discrepency in grades could easily be a couple number grades.
Feb 13, 2008, 7:59 PM
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Re: [shockabuku] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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shockabuku wrote:
Not to be a smart-ass but that may have a lot to do with who you know and what they choose to climb.
Of course, of course.... that's why I remarked: "in my experience"
That said, among my friends there are some climbing 13a sport who suffer on 5.10 cracks, and some climbing solid 5.11 trad but unable to climb 5.12 sport. I was just curious to see how the picture would look like increasing the population size.
Feb 13, 2008, 8:04 PM
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Re: [betaben] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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I spend maybe a half dozen days a year climbing trad. In 07 I climbed several 11+ routes. Had I climbed 200 or so days on gear (as I did on bolts) I am sure I could have sent several 13's on gear...
I dont think there is anything fundamentally harder about trad climbing. It just takes more time, money and blood. If I had a rack, (does a double set of nuts count??) I would be game for climbing cracks a bit more often.
Feb 13, 2008, 8:30 PM
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Re: [rjtrials] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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My trad and sports grade are the same. I'll get .12a routes first or second try (sometimes 3rd or 4th), and by the time I'm at .12d/.13a I end up projecting it, and it doesn't matter if its bolted or on gear.
For me I'm just more comfortable on cracks and gear, hence I do it more often..... which mea ns I'm probably a better crack climber then a sports climber.
(This post was edited by cchas on Feb 13, 2008, 9:01 PM)
Feb 13, 2008, 9:09 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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I put a fair amount of time into both.
My hardest redpoint: Sport is 3-4 letter grades higher. My hardest onsight: Trad and sport are equal.
So for me, there's a real difference, but it's simply because I don't project trad climbs, and I'm capable of eventually sending a route that's four letter grades higher than my onsight limit.
Of course, that's gear being equal. If you start talking about climbs that are runout or have very thin gear, that's another story.
Feb 13, 2008, 9:30 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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I'm probably a 12 sport climber and most of my time is dedicated to that. I haven't been able to cleanly top rope a 12 crack. (oh so close on swedin ringle) But if it was just placing gear I think my hardest sends I could have done close to on trad gear assuming it was available and I projected it just like I did sport climbing.
But again for me the I'm just not as good at crack as I am sport. Back to the swedin ringle climb I think it would take me equal effort to top rope swedin ringle clean as to top rope air swedin clean, because you skip the last 3-4 moves of crack when you do air sweden and go to non crack technique.
So I think one of the major dividing lines is skill at cracks which are likely to be tradionally protected vs skill at non-crack which is more likely to be bolted.
Feb 13, 2008, 9:47 PM
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Re: [docburner] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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docburner wrote:
So I think one of the major dividing lines is skill at cracks which are likely to be tradionally protected vs skill at non-crack which is more likely to be bolted.
Actually, I think pure crack lines are pretty much the same as sport. If you spend time on them, you'll climb at the same level sport and trad. They're basically gear protected sport climbing.
The real distinction is in trad climbs that are a mix of cracks and face\overhang technique requiring: A - The ability to find very complex "rest" positions in order to place gear. B - The ability to accurately scope the line when there aren't bolts there to follow. C - The ability to climb as if there was no rope on sections where falling is not an option (requires different technique).
And that's all assuming a masterful eye at picking out and placing the right gear, with the right slings, efficiently and while pumped and scared.
You don't have to do any of that shit at IC. The Creek is just sport climbing on gear.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Feb 13, 2008, 9:47 PM)
Feb 13, 2008, 9:55 PM
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Re: [docburner] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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docburner wrote:
So I think one of the major dividing lines is skill at cracks which are likely to be tradionally protected vs skill at non-crack which is more likely to be bolted.
( ^^^^ Just used for a point)
There seems to be a missconception here with many that Trad Climbing = Crack climbing.
Feb 13, 2008, 10:05 PM
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Re: [the_climber] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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I'm not sure if you guys got my point or not. It isn't that trad=crack, it is that if you collect all the routes in the world and label them as trad/sport and the skills required to do the cruxes as crack/non crack you would get a distribution such as: 45% sport/no crack 5% sport/crack 10% trad/no crack 40% trad/crack
So in general to send trad climbs you need crack skills, if you don't have any crack climbing skills you are going to struggle much more to lead trad at an equivalent grade as sport because there probably aren't many climbs you can do that are trad and don't require crack skills.
Feb 14, 2008, 3:20 AM
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Re: [docburner] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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docburner wrote:
I'm not sure if you guys got my point or not. It isn't that trad=crack, it is that if you collect all the routes in the world and label them as trad/sport and the skills required to do the cruxes as crack/non crack you would get a distribution such as: 45% sport/no crack 5% sport/crack 10% trad/no crack 40% trad/crack
So in general to send trad climbs you need crack skills, if you don't have any crack climbing skills you are going to struggle much more to lead trad at an equivalent grade as sport because there probably aren't many climbs you can do that are trad and don't require crack skills.
An GO is correct, Indian Creek is really just sports climbing on gear since you can place gear almst at whim (which makes sports climbing more scarey then leading at IC), but there ar other areas where cracks can be as tricky to protect.
I've also heard the argument that the Gunks is sports climbing (in terms of movement skills) with gear.
In the end, who really cares. The terms are just semantics. Its all good fun anyways.
(This post was edited by cchas on Feb 14, 2008, 3:24 AM)
Feb 14, 2008, 4:30 AM
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Re: [yokese] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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Trad harder (and scarier) than sport...
.12a on Trad and 11.d on sport.
.12d top roped, but will lead it soon, which will make sport harder than trad.
I just climb nice routes, regardless of grade/style... some are trad, some sport, TR, DWS, boulder, solo.
Style doesn't really matter to me as long as one is honest about the method used.
It's all climbing to me, and while some enjoy arguing about which discipline is best I sit back and think that they're all better than being at home watching tv or arguing online about which form is best.
Feb 14, 2008, 4:33 PM
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Re: [cracklover] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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cracklover wrote:
My hardest redpoint: Sport is 3-4 letter grades higher. My hardest onsight: Trad and sport are equal.
This is a good point, one I was thinking about after answering this pole. I normally onsight trad climbs I do, and redpoint sport so I compared onsight to redpoint. If I compared onsight to onsight then my gap between sport and trad is much smaller (1-2 letter grades, though I know I can and should be onsighting harder trad lines).
Feb 14, 2008, 4:58 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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Harder sport than trad, though the gap is only a couple of letter grades these days. My hardest redpoint is the same, however (if you count creek as trad, which, for 98% of the routes there, is hard to argue for). I may just consistently redpointing harder trad than sport this year, since I don't really have any sport "projects".
Still, with equal motivation, I'd say trad is harder to onsight/redpoint than sport of the same grade/movement difficulty.
Feb 14, 2008, 5:03 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Poll: How much "harder" do you climb, sport vs trad.
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granite_grrl wrote:
cracklover wrote:
My hardest redpoint: Sport is 3-4 letter grades higher. My hardest onsight: Trad and sport are equal.
This is a good point, one I was thinking about after answering this pole. I normally onsight trad climbs I do, and redpoint sport so I compared onsight to redpoint. If I compared onsight to onsight then my gap between sport and trad is much smaller (1-2 letter grades, though I know I can and should be onsighting harder trad lines).
A very good point indeed. I would have to agree with your break down of it too GG. On good rock (ie. not the local choss) my trad and sport onsights are within a letter grade of each other, and in fact about a number grade and a half above what I typically climb on the local limestone.
A lot of my focus has switched to new routing lately, and I'd have to say that the constant exposure to climbing unknown lines of unknown grades seems to have a leveling effect between my sport and trad grades. I would have to say after somewhat of a recent plateau I'm climbing at a higher caliber because of it; something that has me stoked for my summer projects.
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