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ubotch
Nov 1, 2002, 12:06 AM
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Alright, I feel kind of dumb for asking this but I am gonna ask anyway. What do you guys use daisy chains for? I am under the impression that they are really only used in aid climbing, which I have never done. I have never seemed to miss them in any of the trad or sport climbing that I've done, but maybe I would if I knew what they were for.
Thanks in advance.
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dsafanda
Nov 1, 2002, 12:25 AM
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You pretty much have it right. If you don't aid climb you don't need them. Mine never go in the bag unless I'm planning on jumping in to the aiders.
Some people use them as a convenient way to tie in to a belay anchor when free climbing. I prefer using whatever is available...slings, clove hitch with the lead line, etc.
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thrillseeker05
Nov 1, 2002, 12:27 AM
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A lot of people like to use them as a personal anchor. So when they get to the top they can lock down at whatever length that they need. That is a very general use of the daisy. There are other more intended uses such as for aiding.
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eric
Nov 1, 2002, 12:36 AM
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I used to use slings or whatever to clip into an anchor, but after I tried a daisy, one is always on my harness. It's just so convenient when you need to get yourself safely attached to an anchor to belay or whatever. The hassle with runners is that you never seem to have the right length. With a daisy, you can have most of it looped into a biner, and just unloop to the length you need.
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climbjs
Nov 1, 2002, 12:39 AM
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One of the benefits of the daisy chain, is that you can vary your length from the anchors easily. However, I've always found them to be a nuisance, due to their length. Plus, unless you bring 2 of them, it is difficult to equalize anchors without the "american triangle". Stick to slings unless you're aiding.
[ This Message was edited by: climbjs on 2002-10-31 16:40 ]
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petsfed
Nov 1, 2002, 12:53 AM
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Although it is important to note that there are very few (I can't think of any in fact) daisy chains designed and tested for use as a full strength anchor. That is, its good as a temporary connection, but you should really use a runner or the rope itself for your "permanent" connection. Having said that, daisies are great so long as they're not tied. When you throw in that knot, you effectively eliminate half a pocket, just because the not has a similar length.
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ubotch
Nov 1, 2002, 1:05 AM
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That does seem like a great idea to use a daisy chain to clip in to an anchor with, sounds easier than using runners. But that would apply to any type of climbing (except bouldering), are there any uses that are specific to aid climbing?
Edited to say "clip" instead of "tie".
[ This Message was edited by: ubotch on 2002-10-31 17:11 ]
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jman
Nov 1, 2002, 1:36 AM
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If you use a daisy to clip into an anchor, remember not to put your biner into more than one intermdiate loop in the daisy.
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mike
Nov 1, 2002, 1:38 AM
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Just don't clip it between the loops, just in one loop. If the stitching broke, you got nothing.
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petsfed
Nov 1, 2002, 4:56 AM
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To the best of my knowledge, the whole adjustable length thing with daisies is what makes them so useful when aiding, because then you don't need 40 different runners to clip to any given piece as you are testing it. But I hear tell of these things called "adjustable daisies" that figure prominently into to PTPP (Passthepitonspete)'s "Better way." I'm hardly an expert though. If you really want to learn about the practicallity of daisies as it concerns aiding, ask him. He's funny as hell too!
God...bloody...stupid...my computer is hemoraging messages! Suction! Suction!!
[ This Message was edited by: petsfed on 2002-10-31 21:05 ]
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boz84
Nov 1, 2002, 5:02 AM
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Holy Double-double-double-double-double posts batman!
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eric
Nov 1, 2002, 5:26 AM
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I'd be interested to know how it's used in aid. I use it for sport and trad. Never as the sole tie in. I'm either still tied into the rope and/or have a backup (either another daisy chain or a runner).
You can clip to more than one loop, you just have to make sure that the end of the chain is clipped too.
I clip it like this, with the unused part of the chain (usually) at the anchor end:
http://obnoxiousamerican.com/pics/daisychain.jpg
I use an extra biner for convenience. Actually here the chain is backwards, (the loop you would girth hitch to is on the "wrong" end). But it doesn't matter for my application.
As I need more length, I simply unclip another section from the yellow (anchor side) biner.
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eclarke98
Nov 1, 2002, 5:55 AM
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One thing to be aware of about daisy chains that many people often overlook is the fact that the individual pocket strength ratings are usually only 3-4Kn, meaning you don't want to use it by clipping into only one pocket when you might take a fall on it. The rating that says 22Kn or whatever, on the tag, is the end to end strength. I know some people know this, but in case you didn't just keep it in mind.
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jhwnewengland
Nov 1, 2002, 6:38 AM
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Good call eclarcke. It's practical use is really only limited to body-weight applications... i.e. use it to clip into the anchor at the top when cleaning a sport pitch (untying from the rope in order to pass it through the anchors for loering or rapping), but don't use it as your connection to an anchor when you'll be belaying another climber off that anchor, unless of course it is only clipped at the ends in which case it's just a glorified sling. The method shown in the picture is safe enough, but why risk ripping the pockets in the event of a fall? Just kind of wierd, in my opinion. There are lots of better ways to tie into an anchor at any length you desire (clove-hitch).
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pbjosh
Nov 1, 2002, 6:43 AM
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No excuse for anchoring with anything other than the rope. It's right there. It's way stronger and more straightforward than anything else in the system. Use it.
A straightforward sling or daisy on the harness is great for clipping in to a belay while transfering gear or while rappeling or the like, but when the leader builds an anchor they should always attach to it with the rope.
josh
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jhwnewengland
Nov 1, 2002, 6:43 AM
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to answer your question ubotch, the daisy chain attaches the aid climber to the top of his aiders, which are the ladder-like things an aid climber stands in. That way the climber can lean back without worrying about falling off his ladders! Traditional daisy chains have gone the way of the dodo because they required unclipping and re-clipping every time the climber wanted to move up or down his ladders to place a piece or whatever. Now aid climbers use adjustable daisies, allowing them to move up and down with speed and ease.
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jhwnewengland
Nov 1, 2002, 6:49 AM
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There are excuses to attaching to the anchor with something other than the rope... in fact, in John Long's "Climbing Anchors," Long recommends using slings to tie in rather than the rope, because tying in with the rope usues more rope that could be used on the next pitch, and makes the on/off belay process more confusing (for example, the leader is put on belay by the 2nd, then unties the rope and there's a ton of slack in the system right off the bat. Problem on hanging belays. Or the leader pulls up the rope until the slack is gone, puts the 2nd on belay, then the 2nd unties and there's a ton of slack in the system). I still do it, but it's not such a cut and dry issue.
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pbjosh
Nov 1, 2002, 7:19 AM
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jhw - to be more clear:
I'm not suggesting the leader should build the anchor with the rope. That's a leader's choice of speed vs. safety vs. how much gear to consume.
I'm saying that the leader, having built an anchor, should attach to the equalized point of the anchor with the rope, and only with the rope. You should not belay when attached via a daisy. A full strength sling girth hitched to your harness won't kill you but the rope is right there and is better. I can attach myself faster to the anchor with a clove hitch on the rope than with a cow's tail or daisy anyway. And I can vary the length of attachment without opening my locking biner(s) or losing any strength in the system, all with one hand (man, am I good or what?).
josh
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dirtbag
Nov 1, 2002, 7:52 AM
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I've used adjustable daisies for aid, and imo they are the only way to go.
As far as securing yourself to the anchor - a looped daisy is a valuable thing to have on a long trad or sport climb because of the adjustable length. Of course you should always back up whatever tie-in your using on belay. However, It is a personal preference rather than a saftey issue when it comes to choosing a sling over a daisy. After all, even if all the loops blew on the daisy, you would still hit the end at some point (with a nasty thud.)
Peace
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jhwnewengland
Nov 4, 2002, 7:27 PM
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I hear ya' Josh.
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tradclmbr
Nov 4, 2002, 7:46 PM
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I use daisy chains in sport climbing to take down the top anchor when the anchors are on the face and not at the top of the climb. Its simply easier to clip in with daisy chains to take down the gear and then thread the rope through the chains to rap down because the daisy chains allow for quick adjust and equalizing so you can get to work quickly. With that said, I wouldnt do a hanging belay with them. I agree with using the strongest possible gear you have (e.g. the rope) to tie yourself into the anchor. Really its only a couple of feet of rope you'd be using....rarely the difference between linking 2 pitches in one or not.
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twrock
Nov 5, 2002, 8:31 AM
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After having been stopped five feet short of the next belay on a runout rope stretcher pitch because my belayer was tied into the lower belay with the rope, I no longer follow that practice. (Just about wet myself waiting for her to rebuild it!) I typically set up my anchor with a cordelette and clip it into my harness and the bite of rope that I'm tied in with (did that make sense?)
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sparky
Nov 6, 2002, 1:23 AM
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FIFI hooks.
A fifi hook is in your belay loop and as you are aiding you move the hook to the next loop in the chain shortening it so the leader can have tension any time or so he doesn't fall of his aiders
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atg200
Nov 6, 2002, 1:53 AM
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i've never used a fifi hook aid climbing, and i don't really see the need for one with adjustable daisy chains. maybe i'll change my mind after fiddling with the kong adjustable fifi hook.
personally, i think using daisys to anchor in with on free climbs is stupid as they are not full strength and are a specialized piece of gear. i won't anchor into the belay with anything i wouldn't be willing to catch a fall factor 2 with(though those should be avoided at all costs not matter the situation). the rope clove hitched into the anchor with a sling backup is my general rule of thumb, and takes nearly no time at all to set up.
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flamer
Nov 6, 2002, 2:49 AM
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Atg- you're right adjustables do generally eliminate the need for a fifi. Some people use both to fine tune their system. I find it better to keep the tangle on my harness(while aiding) to a minimum! Maybe we should climb some time?
[ This Message was edited by: flamer on 2002-11-05 18:50 ]
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