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piton
Jun 24, 2008, 10:46 AM
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wrong name dick face. that's your name right dick face? and the only bolts i chopped were at allamuchy.
and how the fuck are putting in shit ass bolts in a water streak productive.
later on dick face
(This post was edited by piton on Jun 24, 2008, 11:12 AM)
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joeforte
Jun 24, 2008, 12:03 PM
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Wow, strong sentiment around here.
I can assure you that no shit-ass bolts will be placed in any water streaks by me!
Can't we all just get along? 
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adatesman
Jun 24, 2008, 8:00 PM
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I was putting away the gear from the weekend and realized I forgot to post a pic of the mank I pulled from the rap station left of the one on Osprey.... And yes, this was all around a single tree that was less than 1' diameter.
I think I mentioned in an earlier post that two of the pieces of webbing were there long enough to be inside the trunk of the tree (tree actually had 2 trunks from 1 root, coming up in a V. Webbing was in the V and the tree grew together around it).
I'm thinking I'll hold onto the longer pieces and throw them on the pull tester at some point. If we end up not putting in bolted rap stations, perhaps we should instead think about cleaning up the ones that are already there? Seems to me if the tree had time to grow around it, it was there too long and should have been removed prior to adding more to the pile.
-aric.
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TradEddie
Jun 24, 2008, 11:34 PM
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Nice, especially considering there has already been one death there because of ratty slings.
When I first did Osprey there was a bunch of slings like those and one nice new-looking fluorescent yellow sling. There was a date written with sharpie onto the tail, and it was four or five years old! I can't imagine how old the others were.
Ed
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adatesman
Jun 25, 2008, 12:47 AM
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I hate to ask, but was that the one on H&HW or was there another death I haven't heard about?
These were particularly bad so I removed them. There was/is still a green sling that looked/felt in ok shape, so I left it and the rap rings (pair of SMC rolled rings). And just FYI, my criteria for replacing slings seems more rigorous than most peoples seems to be. Next time I'm up I'll probably replace the black one on at the P1 belay of Osprey (and remove the other ones while I'm at it), which I know for a fact it went in last spring as I put it there.... Its starting to fade and get stiff, so time for it to go since webbing doesn't cost much and chances are someone who doesn't know better will try and use it as an anchor.
-aric.
EDIT- BTW, not that you were explicitly suggesting it, but good idea putting the date on the tail. I'll start doing that.
(This post was edited by adatesman on Jun 25, 2008, 1:01 AM)
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adatesman
Jun 25, 2008, 1:59 AM
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This evening I've been going through the Yahoo Group for the NJ Climber's Coalition (which someone pointed me to over email (after seeing the fliers)) and apparently this bolting thing has been hashed over repeatedly over the past decade. One post I found seems to resonate with me, so here it is. Its from Paul Nick, who co-wrote the Climbing NJ guide and apparently is/was a mod on that forum. The whole thread looks to be worth reading as well.
In reply to: As the moderator and guidebook author, I am more concerned about safety issues than ethics, especially given the number of people who have died recently, due to a failed anchor and other reasons. Ed, I would say that you really should check out the bolts you have placed. If something happens, you would not want that on your conscience. I do not have a problem with reasonable common-sense bolting. If bolts can be used to create a safe anchor at strategic points on the cliff, so be it in my view. This approach has worked well at the gunks. If the first ascensionist chooses to bolt otherwise unprotectable sections of a climb, so be it. Mark Ronca and myself have both done this to create worthwhile climbs. I think there are only a few points of controversy. I do believe that Ed has placed some unnecessary bolts, and so I ask him not to do it again in the future, but I think it would be much better to get his agreement before removing any that he has already placed. Regarding retro-bolting, I myself have come the closest to being guilty on that score. Having little or no idea where the first ascensionist went, I bolted a direct variation to an existing route. The hangers on those bolts are now hammered flat. I think it would have been better to have had a discussion about them first, but what's done is done. I will not do it again, so it is not really an issue at this point.
I too am more concerned with (relative) safety than ethics and have no problem with several centrally located bolted rap stations that allow for single rope rappels. I also wouldn't have a problem with foregoing the bolted rap stations and instead putting in/recreating the overcliff trail to allow a central 1 rope rap on Surprise, but frankly I don't thing DWG gets the traffic to make putting in/maintaining the additional trail worthwhile. For starters, everyone has to use the undercliff trail and look at the condition its in. Chances of the overcliff trail being better looked after are essentially nil.
I guess in a nutshell, I'm of the opinion that we needn't make DWG as sanitized as the Gunks (I like the face fact that its loose and dirty and requires gear anchors), but for getting down I'd prefer bolts to save wear on the trees and help prevent raining rocks down on people below. Its a fact of life that its loose up top and taking one to the head because someone up above wasn't careful is something I have no control over and frankly would prefer avoiding. Of course, the other option is shoveling out all the choss/dirt near the top, but installing a couple bolts is far less work and much lower impact.
-aric.
EDIT- someday I'll learn to spell....
(This post was edited by adatesman on Jun 25, 2008, 3:39 AM)
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joeforte
Jun 25, 2008, 3:10 AM
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I've tried cleaning the rocks off the top of voyage when noone else was around. Man it was a sight to see! Must have trundled 50+ tennis ball sized rocks away from the edge. There was no rocks left within a few feet of the edge. 6 months later, The edge is lined with rocks, which you cannot avoid knocking off. You have to step over the edge and then gingerly lay your rope between a few rocks and hope you don't knock them onto yourself when you pull your ropes.
I think a well planned and carefully bolted rappel would be nice near these two popular areas. But after hearing that someone chopped a rap station on osprey last year kinda discourages me. Maybe if the rap is clearly off route, and not near the belays.
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roclimb
Jun 25, 2008, 4:41 AM
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The access fund was recommending a bolting comittee be started for DWG and part of NJ. If you guys are interested I can put you in touch with the right people.
Either way. a few good stations around the gap are long overdue. I put up a nice mixed bolt/trad route about 10 years ago I never went back to put in a rap station for. I know it sure could use one. If anyone wants to throw one in, be my guest.
Joe, you gotta send me pics of he climbing wall.
~Rob
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piton
Jun 25, 2008, 10:48 AM
Post #34 of 69
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wrong DF, there is No bolting committee for NJ. stay on your PA side. we have legs that can walk off, which is the safest way.
adatesman putting a date on sling should be common practice. also you better check with the Rangers at the gunks and ask them why they will not install anymore bolted anchors.
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adatesman
Jun 25, 2008, 1:59 PM
Post #35 of 69
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piton wrote: also you better check with the Rangers at the gunks and ask them why they will not install anymore bolted anchors.
Because....?
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TradEddie
Jun 25, 2008, 5:47 PM
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adatesman wrote: I hate to ask, but was that the one on H&HW or was there another death I haven't heard about?
Over on the NJ side, rap slings failed (ANAM 2001). By the sound of that post from Yahoo, there may have been others.
Ed
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joeforte
Jun 26, 2008, 2:18 AM
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Hey Aric, I saw your baggy of notes at the tope of the trail... Good idea!
I climbed osprey today, and my 2 60's just barely made it to the ground. There were the usual loose rocks falling when we pulled our ropes again.
Does anyone know what that manky2pitoninlooserock anchor is for near the bottom? I assume it is for ppl. with 2 50's that can't make it to the ground. Nonetheless, that thing is sketchy.
Looked like the best place for a rap anchor would be between H.H and osprey, on that next ledge down and to the right. Only problem with this is, you don't get to the very top. I was looking at maybe the rock next to the belay ledge 20 feet directly below the tree, but this would drop you in right on top the climb, and then the midstation would have to be on route. I don't want to bolt a rap station on any route, unless it is replacing an existing manky fixed anchor or tree.
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adatesman
Jun 26, 2008, 3:17 AM
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Thanks, but credit for that idea goes to Mojomonkey.
Turns out that you're not the only one to see it... I've been doing the email thing with a couple people who don't frequent RC but saw the fliers, and they pointed me to the NJ Climbers Coalition's Yahoo Group.... And I've started stirring the pot there as well.
Looks like we should be able to get a fair number of people for trail maintenance, but the bolt thing will need to be batted around a good bit. Lots of threads over on the NJCC group about bolting at DWG, going back almost a decade. Unfortunately the threading isn't so good, which makes it hard to read.
The 2 piton anchor near the bottom.... Do you mean the Osprey P1 belay in the alcove? If I remember correctly it has older (~1 year) black 1" webbing on it and one, possibly two newer colored ones on it with a pair of rap rings? Its been 2 weeks since I was up there and forget the color of the other slings (I put the black one there and was surprised no one had replaced it yet). That would probably fall about where two 50's would end, but there'd be a bit of a swing over to it.
I guess I don't quite see how you'd put an anchor between Osprey and HH, since they top out at the same place and HH traverses a good bit left to the topout with no easy way to get above that traverse without going onto the choss.
If I'm thinking of the ledge you're talking about (a bit down and to the right of the P1 Osprey belay, a bit up and right of a bushy tree), if you can get there its easy enough to climb up to the P1 Osprey belay and rap from the pitons there. Also there's a desk-sized block just under that ledge that isn't all that well attached to the cliff, so avoiding that may be a good idea (the bottom of HH P1 was wet when we did it over the weekend, so we went offroute to get on dry rock. I was less than pleased to have to pull onto and stand on top of that rock....)
Oh, I think I understand you now... You're talking about putting the rap on the traverse at the end of HH. That would drop you on that ledge to the right of the P1 Osprey belay. But what's the point if you can't hang out at the top of the cliff?
If you put it way out on the left side of the block below the current rap tree I think that would keep you off the route (almost to the large detached block to the left of the P1 Osprey belay) and avoid the loose rock issue.
Then again, I recently learned that I've been doing P2 of Osprey wrong and don't really know where it goes. Instead of going a good bit left off the P1 belay I've been going up to the roof and then pulling around the left side of it. Not much fun, but doable (mostly a commitment thing.... there's good undercling under the roof, to a iffy hold above with smearing feet and what felt like a jug in a relative sense above that, but its out of sight until you go for it and pull upwards. Getting up to and out from under the roof is a pain as well, with the tree growing there....).
Anyway, good call going up there today; looked gorgeous out. I was considering going up for some roped soloing, but had something come up and couldn't go.
-a.
(This post was edited by adatesman on Jun 26, 2008, 3:22 AM)
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joeforte
Jun 26, 2008, 1:48 PM
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I never stop to belay at that first Osprey station 30 feet up. The gear looks like crap, and pulling up 170 feet of rope is not fun. I usually run out the entire "first pitch" so I have plenty of gear for the "second pitch". Linking them is really easy.
The P2 belay is below a roof on a sloping ledge. Is this the roof you're talking about? Or is it the one right below the belayers feet?
Putting the Rap station down and to the left of the rap tree would make belaying P3 tough, since you'd have to traverse to the station. Another problem with this is that it would drop you right onto "Pain Builds Character".
I'm thinking that osprey is better left alone, rapping off the tree with 2 ropes. It sure is a loose scramble to that tree, but not as bad as the ledge above Voyage.
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adatesman
Jun 26, 2008, 2:53 PM
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joeforte
Jun 26, 2008, 6:37 PM
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Yeah, I'd go up there with you to check it out sometime when you get back.
As for that roof above the first belay... I usually undercling left and then sidepull/layback up the side of it.
The problem with putting the rap station over pain builds character is that the midstation would have to be somewhere on the route.
I did see a fixed anchor to the left of osprey, made of a bong (type of piton, not the kind you smoke) and what looked like a fixed nut. The sling was tied straight through the wire of the nut. Maybe this could be replaced by a bolted rap anchor. I bet one 50 reaches the ground from there.
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adatesman
Jun 27, 2008, 5:32 PM
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Got a bit of an update for you all...
Just spoke with Ranger Carawan, who's the volunteer coordinator for DWG, and got some info on how to proceed. He'll be sending me a volunteer application form, which basically is a document on which I (we) explain what we're planning on doing and how we'll be doing it.
He was quite receptive to the idea of us doing the trail maintenance, but needs to check around a bit first to sort out some jurisdiction issues (he wasn't sure if the cliff is in the park proper or in state forest land). He also was receptive to the idea of getting together to evaluate and plan what we'll be doing, and had some good idea of other people/groups to talk to with regards to the trail maintenance.
I'll keep on top of this and let you all know if/when anything else develops.
-aric.
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c_kryll
Jul 3, 2008, 8:51 PM
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I'll add my name and I know a few others that may be interested in helping with a trail maintenence day. I know that in the past (few years ago) getting the park service to OK trail maintenence was like pulling teeth. Almost all of the PA side of the gap is within the DWG Park as far as I was aware (read ie. a couple of years ago) The NJ side is technically part of the Worthington State Forest and has different regulations concerning climbing.
Here's a fun little factiod: According to NJ state Law: all rock climbing anywhere in the state of NJ is currently illegal. But since nobody ever inforces it it's pretty much a mute point.
My opinion to bolting on the PA side is basically this. Don't dumb it down. I like the fact that climbing there is adventurous, dangerous, and not for everyone. If you want safe, clean, crowded, don't have to think to get up or down climbing then go to the Gunks. Climbing at the GAP requires you to have a full skill set of climbing skills. Why ruin it with bolted rap stations. People have been climbing there for years without the need for such things. If you don't know how your going to get down then bring your approach shoes and walk off, or bring another rope, be creative don't simplifie it.
On a side note, I did Ribs with a client last weekend and the first belay/rap station that is up there was "equalized" with a fixed pink tri-cam and the DEAD tree. I removed some slings and created a seperate anchor using only 2 fixed pink tri-cams. (yes I know 2 points isn't really enough but it's what was there and all I had to make it much SAFER then what it was) So if anyone is planning on climbing that one and wishes to add a 3rd placement feel free, but I didn't want to see people rapping off a dead tree. The tree at the top of that route is still in good health and it was no problem to get down with a 2 rope rappell.
Regards,
Chris
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joeforte
Jul 4, 2008, 4:05 AM
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C_kryll, I definitely don't want to dumb down the water gap and turn it into the gunks. I love the adventure of the gap. What is your opinion about a central, 1 rope rap route between surprise and voyage? This is the most popular area on the cliff. I don't see this taking any adventure away from the gap, and surely would not turn it into the gunks. I don't want bolted belays and top-rope-able anchors like the gunks. Just a safe, centralized and easy way down. Yeah a walkoff is possible, but you'd prolly just call it a day after that slog, considering you'd have to do the uphill approach again to do another route.
I can see why some do not want bolted raps and the gap, and if this is the opinion of a few regulars, then I won't be the guy to ruin their crag. I love the gap, and although a centralized bolted rap would be nice, we've been getting along quite fine without it (minus a few epics). Until a consensus can be reached, it will remain untouched.
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c_kryll
Jul 6, 2008, 6:15 PM
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Why one rope rap stations? If there is going to be bolts at the top to get down I can definatly see that it would decrease impact to trees etc. But, why make that a one rope descent? It's possible to get down from anypoint in the Gap using a two-rope rap. Is carrying that extra rope really going to hinder the experience? If there are going to be Rap stations at the Gap why not only put two bolts at the top; instead of the four total you would need if you're single roping it.
Just my opinion,
Chris
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seanfur
Jul 6, 2008, 10:58 PM
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Just my opinion, but I am against bolts at the Gap, even for rap anchors. When needed, I trail a 7mm line for double raps. I also always carry a tied sling or two (and a knife) to (re)build a rap. If there is an alternative to drilling I prefer it. That being said, I believe in majority rule and a couple of bolts placed with prudence will not ruin my Gap going experience.
Sean
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joeforte
Jul 7, 2008, 1:32 AM
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Personally, I climb on doubles at the gap, but a few regulars have mentioned putting in better mid-stations. Particularly replacing some of the old, "fixed gear and slings" rap stations with a pair of fixe ring anchors. This would be safer, and less of an eyesore.
I'm not interested in putting bolted rap stations next to solid trees on top, but if there is a crappy nest of pitons, nuts and slings halfway down, I think that is a good reason for a pair of rap anchors.
But like I said, I'm going to abandon the effort until we reach some kind of agreement. Bolt holes are permanent and rock is finite.
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adatesman
Jul 11, 2008, 11:44 PM
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Just a quick update... I was up at DWG today to take pics of the worst of the trail erosion to send along with the trail maintenance proposal next week, so hopefully we'll be able to get the NPS's blessing on this shortly.
In other news, we took along a brush hook (basically a short forward curving blade mounted on the end of a broom handle) and cleared back a lot of the brush on the trail from the parking lot all the way out to Osprey. Also made a point of cutting back as much of the poison ivy as possible, so the hike in should be much nicer until it all grows back. Just make sure to bring the Tecnu until the next good rainstorm comes through to wash all the poison ivy clippings off the trail.....
Oh, and we stopped by the gear shop in town and dropped off some of the "Attention Climbers! Trail Day Coming" fliers. They've actually started carrying a small amount of gear, which was nice to see. A bit strange for them to have sport draws though...  Anyway, they've got biners, nut tools, a couple BD micro-stoppers and Kong Ghost belay devices. Never seen one before and they look pretty nice.
And actually, the owner of the shop just dropped me an email and he's excited to hear we're doing this and is willing to help out however he can.
-aric.
(This post was edited by adatesman on Jul 12, 2008, 1:29 AM)
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dynobelay
Jul 16, 2008, 7:11 PM
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I agree, climbing with 2 ropes at Minsi makes all raps accessible.
If you do want a 1 rope descent from the top- its already there: Gaplander. Its really not far to walk to, no loose rubble by its edge, it doesn't require bolts by trad routes. I would just blaze a followable route from the top of the High Wall to the Gaplander tree (and probably beyond to the parking lot also).
I never rap at Tammany. Its too easy just walking over to Class Four Ramp and downclimbing it.
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joeforte
Jul 17, 2008, 1:22 AM
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Hey thanks for the beta Dynobelay. That's good info to know. I've never climbed anything right of the practice face. I think friday I'll try the teardrop buttress and gaplander. Sound like great climbs.
Hey does anyone know if there is a variation of "Elders of the tribe" going 30 feet left and up a flake under the upper roof? Elders escapses this roof to the right, out the corner.
I was leading elders for the first time this w/e and my buddy yelled up to me "yo I think it goes left!" just as I'm about to pull the lip right, the way the route really goes. He misread the guidebook's description, where they talk about underclinging left 8 feet. I had already passed that section, but he was looking through trees. So anyway, I did the line, and it was really good! Very nice flake, takes some big pro, but I had a large hex that worked great. The middle of elders is SCARY loose blocks, but if you're smart you can avoid them.
The cruxy flake you have to turn and layback is filled with raspberry bushes. Some cleaning is in order!
So anyway, neither guidebook has any info on this line...does anyone know anything about it?
(This post was edited by joeforte on Jul 17, 2008, 1:24 AM)
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