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docburner
Sep 20, 2008, 12:43 AM
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Couple questions about things I do that might be bad.
1. Sometimes the first piece of gear on a climb I have is not a great nut. Say 10 feet up, it will only hold a fall down, and after I place the next piece it will definitely pull on any fall. Is it worth placing? (Piece 2 is a bomber cam at 20 feet up)
2. If the climb is a couple harder moves and then a ledge, ie manteling to the ledge is one of the harder moves, I usually place near the lip, do the move and pull the gear. Good example of this is Incredible handcrack.
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sungam
Sep 20, 2008, 12:57 AM
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Your first piece should be a omnidirectional (apparently it;s a real word and multidirectional isn't) piece to stop zippers. this is when, due to your belayer not standing right under your first piece, the outwards component of the force of the fall is enough to pop the nut. if piece 2 is a nut, it will then pop as well, and so on and so forth till we reach your last piece... then, well, I think you get the point.
If your second piece is *ahem*omnidirectional then this isn't really an issue, and make sure your belayer stands right under your first piece till you place the cam.
Also remember that if all that's between you and the ground is one poor nut, or even several poor pieces... It only takes one fuck up and you won't be climbing much of anything for a while.
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billl7
Sep 20, 2008, 1:37 AM
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As sungam indicates, the first piece on lead should be a zipper stopper if it needs to be. An only-downward-pull piece that also needs to eventually hold an outward (or even upward) pull is a gamble. This applies to more than just the first piece. This kind of consideration is needed almost any time the rope makes a significant change in direction.
Also, assuming at least the top piece holds, zippering may not be the only problem. Imagine the extreme case when the rope makes a large 'L' shape with pro holding the corner. Think of the introduced slack if the piece holding the corner should blow. Could/will the additional slack allow the leader to deck somewhere on the remainder of the pitch? Could it allow the second to deck if he/she falls (e.g., low crux)?
Bill
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sungam
Sep 20, 2008, 1:40 AM
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I think dave macleod did a route called "the big zipper". Named after the consequences of a fall...
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billl7
Sep 20, 2008, 1:41 AM
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Not sure what you mean about #2.
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sungam
Sep 20, 2008, 1:46 AM
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billl7 wrote: Not sure what you mean about #2.
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alleyehave
Sep 20, 2008, 1:51 AM
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docburner wrote: Couple questions about things I do that might be bad. 1. Sometimes the first piece of gear on a climb I have is not a great nut. Say 10 feet up, it will only hold a fall down, and after I place the next piece it will definitely pull on any fall. Is it worth placing? (Piece 2 is a bomber cam at 20 feet up)
I always try and make my first piece a cam, and check it for an upward pull. This annihilates this problem. If a cam is not ideal, an opposed nut is my next choice. If that's not possible, run it out a bit further on a single pitch(depending on the climb), on a mutli-pitch i'd place a nut as good as I could, and place a cam or other OMNIdirectional piece asap or downclimb to a better spot to plug pro. And keep my belayer close in if only a nut can be placed after.docburner wrote: 2. If the climb is a couple harder moves and then a ledge, ie manteling to the ledge is one of the harder moves, I usually place near the lip, do the move and pull the gear. Good example of this is Incredible handcrack.
I'm failing to see the problem? If you're comfortable with the gear below the lip-piece, whats the issue? Back-cleaning is completely situational...
(This post was edited by alleyehave on Sep 20, 2008, 1:52 AM)
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docburner
Sep 20, 2008, 2:13 AM
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Guess on my first question it is more you either place the nut before a hard move, and its your only option, or you skip it. I see the issue with the extra slack from the rope, I hadn't considered it.
Second question was more because people thought it was weird I would back clean the piece, even though it wasn't really necessary as I can place a good piece from the ledge, so just checking that I'm not doing anything stupid.
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tradrenn
Sep 20, 2008, 2:22 AM
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docburner wrote: Couple questions about things I do that might be bad. 1. Sometimes the first piece of gear on a climb I have is not a great nut. Say 10 feet up, it will only hold a fall down, and after I place the next piece it will definitely pull on any fall. Is it worth placing? (Piece 2 is a bomber cam at 20 feet up)
Yes. I would still placed it and ask my belayer to stand as close to the rock as possible, then I would call him my "Human Antizipper" (TM)
docburner wrote: 2. If the climb is a couple harder moves and then a ledge, ie manteling to the ledge is one of the harder moves, I usually place near the lip, do the move and pull the gear. Good example of this is Incredible handcrack.
I don't see a good reason to pull your gear, unless you don't have/didn't bring enough gear and you have to leap frog your gear as you go up.
Does the route continue above the ledge ?
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wmfork
Sep 20, 2008, 2:33 AM
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docburner wrote: 1. Sometimes the first piece of gear on a climb I have is not a great nut. Say 10 feet up, it will only hold a fall down, and after I place the next piece it will definitely pull on any fall. Is it worth placing? (Piece 2 is a bomber cam at 20 feet up)
docburner wrote: 2. If the climb is a couple harder moves and then a ledge, ie manteling to the ledge is one of the harder moves, I usually place near the lip, do the move and pull the gear. Good example of this is Incredible handcrack. |
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nepaclimber
Sep 20, 2008, 2:43 AM
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How many people put an upward directional piece at ground level as the first piece of gear (unless you know your first piece will be bomber), i was taught to put a cam or nut at about ground level and have that there just for upward pull.
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alleyehave
Sep 20, 2008, 3:22 AM
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nepaclimber wrote: How many people put an upward directional piece at ground level as the first piece of gear (unless you know your first piece will be bomber), i was taught to put a cam or nut at about ground level and have that there just for upward pull.
ugh, talk about rope drag.
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vegastradguy
Sep 20, 2008, 3:28 AM
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nepaclimber wrote: How many people put an upward directional piece at ground level as the first piece of gear (unless you know your first piece will be bomber), i was taught to put a cam or nut at about ground level and have that there just for upward pull.
rarely, but i do when it makes sense. The Green Adjective in little cottonwood is a really good example of this. basically, there's no cam opportunities for....at least 30' or so, but microstoppers protect it adequately. to prevent them pulling, a opposed nut/cam at ground level was used when i led it. good thing, too- the first nut pulled anyway when i lowered off the anchor, but the rest stayed put.
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tradrenn
Sep 20, 2008, 3:51 AM
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alleyehave wrote: nepaclimber wrote: How many people put an upward directional piece at ground level as the first piece of gear (unless you know your first piece will be bomber), i was taught to put a cam or nut at about ground level and have that there just for upward pull. ugh, talk about rope drag.
I disagree, having antizipper near the ground doesn`t create ropedrag.
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alleyehave
Sep 20, 2008, 4:12 AM
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tradrenn wrote: alleyehave wrote: nepaclimber wrote: How many people put an upward directional piece at ground level as the first piece of gear (unless you know your first piece will be bomber), i was taught to put a cam or nut at about ground level and have that there just for upward pull. ugh, talk about rope drag. I disagree, having antizipper near the ground doesn`t create ropedrag.
I failed to read "near the ground" and instead read "ground level". Maybe we saw two different posts from two different planets.
Read my previous post two posts ago, anti-zipper yes, as your first placement, but not at ground level for crying outloud.
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evanwish
Sep 20, 2008, 5:09 AM
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docburner wrote: 2. If the climb is a couple harder moves and then a ledge, ie manteling to the ledge is one of the harder moves, I usually place near the lip, do the move and pull the gear. Good example of this is Incredible handcrack.
are you saying you might mantle and pop the nut out as you continue past it?
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tradrenn
Sep 20, 2008, 6:29 AM
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alleyehave wrote: tradrenn wrote: alleyehave wrote: nepaclimber wrote: How many people put an upward directional piece at ground level as the first piece of gear (unless you know your first piece will be bomber), i was taught to put a cam or nut at about ground level and have that there just for upward pull. ugh, talk about rope drag. I disagree, having antizipper near the ground doesn`t create ropedrag. I failed to read "near the ground" and instead read "ground level". Maybe we saw two different posts from two different planets. Read my previous post two posts ago, anti-zipper yes, as your first placement, but not at ground level for crying outloud.
I'm pretty sure that noone uses antizipper at ground level, that is just an idiotic idea. Usually it is about 5 to 8 feet above your feet and it does not create a rope drag. That's what I was referring to.
Have a nice weekend climbing.
(You are climbing this weekend, right?)
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alleyehave
Sep 20, 2008, 6:46 AM
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tradrenn wrote: alleyehave wrote: tradrenn wrote: alleyehave wrote: nepaclimber wrote: How many people put an upward directional piece at ground level as the first piece of gear (unless you know your first piece will be bomber), i was taught to put a cam or nut at about ground level and have that there just for upward pull. ugh, talk about rope drag. I disagree, having antizipper near the ground doesn`t create ropedrag. I failed to read "near the ground" and instead read "ground level". Maybe we saw two different posts from two different planets. Read my previous post two posts ago, anti-zipper yes, as your first placement, but not at ground level for crying outloud. I'm pretty sure that noone uses antizipper at ground level, that is just an idiotic idea. Usually it is about 5 to 8 feet above your feet and it does not create a rope drag. That's what I was referring to. Have a nice weekend climbing. (You are climbing this weekend, right?)
Hopefully Sunday, but I am moving all day tomorrow so...we'll see.
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tomcat
Sep 20, 2008, 2:20 PM
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An upslotted piece used to be the norm.Where you place it usually depends on what the available options are,may be at the ground level,or above it.With the advent of cams the practice has become less frequent.Rope drag can be alleviated with a sling,or by having your belayer unclip it once you have some multidirectional gear in place higher up,but that can lead to the first piece popping out and dumping some slack in.
I always do it,for example on Recluse at Cathedral,which has small wires to protect a hard 10d crux right off the ground,and it's overhanging.The upslot keeps the rope out of my legs as well.
In the way back just about everyone anchored the belayer,so standing directly underneath aws not always an option.It's Ok in theory,standing under,except if you blow off an early move like you are describing you end up on top of the belayer.
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altelis
Sep 20, 2008, 3:32 PM
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there are times when you really can't place an omnidirectional piece. such is life. part of climbing trad is recognizing this and making the decision to move on or back off. as long as you understand the risk of climbing on then you've made a fair decision.
the first piece you can get in after the very thin (though easy) slab section off the anchor on the last pitch of Pentapitch was a nut that was clearly going to pop if the rope weighted it (problem with protecting a slabby crack with nuts). however this was followed by easy climbing to a good (though small) cam placement. so it is. about 50% of the time this nut would pop while putting the second on belay (you climb almost straight left off the belay, slot the nut then climb straight up, so when you pull the rope snug the rope makes a sharp turn at the nut....)
as for your second question, why not? there have definitely been times when i faced a crux move that i wanted protected well, due to ledge, corner, etc close by i wanted to avoid falling into. but it was also clear that the postion of the gear was such that it would create TERRIBLE rope drag if left in. sure, i'll place the piece if i think i can easily clean it after the move. if its going to be a pain though, push through or back off.
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gt29905
Sep 20, 2008, 6:18 PM
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tradrenn wrote: alleyehave wrote: nepaclimber wrote: How many people put an upward directional piece at ground level as the first piece of gear (unless you know your first piece will be bomber), i was taught to put a cam or nut at about ground level and have that there just for upward pull. ugh, talk about rope drag. I disagree, having antizipper near the ground doesn`t create ropedrag.
I'd really love to see a diagram of the "anti-zipper" principle because I'm having a hard time visualizing it.
Anyone feeling artsy? Perhaps Majid? 
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AlexCV
Sep 20, 2008, 8:29 PM
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docburner wrote: 2. If the climb is a couple harder moves and then a ledge, ie manteling to the ledge is one of the harder moves, I usually place near the lip, do the move and pull the gear. Good example of this is Incredible handcrack.
I can see why you would want to do that. A few lines of thought on the issue:
1) How much further down is the next piece? Would a fall be a ground/ledge fall?
2) Is the ground above really easy? Is it loose? Can I place something else soon? Would a fall on that piece be better then a fall on the piece below the lip?
3) What about rope drag?
4) Would your second use the piece to french-free the hard move? If yes, should you also leave a long sling to make that easier?
5) Will I need the piece later on?
I'm inclined to leave the piece, possibly reslinging it with something longer to reduce rope drag.
(This post was edited by AlexCV on Sep 20, 2008, 8:31 PM)
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Lazlo
Sep 20, 2008, 10:29 PM
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I'm posting just because I'm bored and I have a story... Forgivness?
My partner and I went out to this crag and we're forcing a route. Weird limestone crack; really irregular, and it isn't accepting gear very well. It's a thin finger crack and I'm trying to plug hexes, nuts, and cams. Finally, I'm fed up with the route and bail off on a nut.
As I'm back cleaning, I'm down climbing to avoid weighting the nut. I'm half-way back down the route; just to hear my partner say: (Disclaimer; he's usually not this stupid!) "Wow! I can't believe that piece hasn't popped!" I look back at him: he's sitting on a log fifteen feet away from the wall; the rope is at nearly a 90 degree angle through the first piece (a small nut with a draw). The only reason it hasn't popped is that the wire is caught on a little nubbin' on the edge of the crack. If the nut had popped I'd instantly have had atleast 10 extra feet of slack! I was a little pissed! Most of my gear above that piece were nuts too (I wasn't liking the crack for cams) I could have zippered; which would add even more slack.
He knew better, but just wasn't thinking. I could have hit him though. He deserved it that day.
Ae
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