The atc-guide and reverso tout there ability to bring up two seconds simultaneously, which is admittedly cool, but when someone in another thread mentioned that one was slightly better than the other at handling such a scenario it got me wondering. Who is it that's doing this so much that they care? So post up and tell me if you constantly find yourself belaying two seconds. Maybe I'm the only one who isn't.
its a nice feature to have. you can also belay just a single second using the autoblock feature as well. makes the job alot easier in certain situations when the anchor/masterpoint is far enough above you. worth the 4$ extra over the xp imho.
It is a nice feature. I'v climbed as a party of 3 several times and bringing up both seconds at the same time is the most efficient way to go. If everyone is competent at this method it can be practically just as fast as climbing as a pair.
I don't climb in 3's. Waste of a day, IMO. THe only time I do is if our daughter is with us. THen she goes second and I solely focus on her while she is climbing, so no I don't belay two at a time. I certainly could if I needed to, but I have never been in the position to need to.
Who is it that's doing this so much that they care?
guides, alpinists. or anyone who uses doubles/halfs or twins. personally i like the reverso.
JCS
This is what I'm thinking. Its not so much a problem of bringing up two seconds, but controling two different ropes that you may have to take up in different amounts.
While I don't use my doubles on rock too terribly much (much much more for ice) I do see it as an important ability.
Used one at Potrero Chico a good while back. Once everyone in the party gets the hang of things and develops a rhythm it works well. ...real time saver on long multi-pitch routes with a 3 person party.
Who is it that's doing this so much that they care?
guides, alpinists. or anyone who uses doubles/halfs or twins. personally i like the reverso.
JCS
hit the nail on the head. a reverso/atc-guide is pretty much a necessity for a multipitch guide. they're also very useful for doubles and twins as well.
you can also belay just a single second using the autoblock feature as well.
I've definitely used this kind of device in autoblock mode with one second, just never with two, which is why I was curious. Doubles and twins are scenarios I hadn't thought of. Damn, now my poll needs another option.
if both 2nds move at a similar speed the leader can then pull in slack on both ropes simultaneously.
i personally ask one of the 2nds to start up 20 feet before the other. treat both ropes as one when pulling up the slack. if the belayer falls behind pulling up slack, the 2nd should only have to yell "up rope" on which ever colored rope they're tied into.
also, when belaying, don't bother making two different piles for each rope. just one stack. but keep it neat. once both 2nds are at the belay, flip the stacked rope over. and the same leader can continue up the next pitch.
If swapping leads, don't flip the stack. the previous pitch's leader will need to untie one of his ends and hand it to the next leader.
Climbing with three is easy once you work out the steps. In fact, at times it is better to have three depnding on the scale of the climb.
You'll get more tips the faster you can bring people up and get them going.
In terms of spacing, blue rope climbs while red rope dismantles the anchor, by the time red is done blue is far enough ahead to not pose a kick-in-the-face hazard - i really only do this on low angle easy stuff that I know pretty well with clients/climbers whose abilities i'm comfortable with.
(This post was edited by carabiner96 on Oct 1, 2008, 4:18 PM)
Well I'll climb in a group of 3 anyday as opposed to just lying on the sofa.. Unless it's a rest day of course.
But, why would it be one or the other. I want to climb, I get a partner and I go climb. Now, granted, my wife is my partner 98% of the time, but still, climbing in 3's is a pain in the ass and not nearly as much fun. Why wouldn't you have a choice to climb in 3's or not (Unless you are a guide).
It is a nice feature. I'v climbed as a party of 3 several times and bringing up both seconds at the same time is the most efficient way to go. If everyone is competent at this method it can be practically just as fast as climbing as a pair.
I agree. I use that feature everytime I multi-pitch in a party of three.
Another "yay" for climbing in groups of three. I don't do it too often on rock, but almost always on ice. I really like climbing in groups on three, actually. Especially with a newbie. That one of us can lead while the belayer can sit at the bottom with the newb and explain what the leader is doing. It's a lot more convenient than trying to lead while simultaneously explain, teach, and answer questions.
Another vote for doubles. I climb almost exclusively with doubles and use the Guide for bringing up seconds. While I used to use the Reverso, I simply like the Guide a bit more and use that more often.
I think it's become the trendy thing to do - pushed by the hardware industry of course - and is misused on occasion. Just yesterday there was a party of 3 climbing next to us. Single pitch route, leader belaying at the top of the pitch. No need to hurry, "speed is safety" doesn't really apply on a 70' route 2 minutes from the road. Anyway, the lower climber falls, penduluming out a bit, his rope nearly plucking the upper climber off as she struggled with what appeared to be at-her-limit difficulties. She kinda freaked out. IMO this was a party that should have been doing something a lot less complicated.
I also find this feature to be very useful when doing easy multi pitch climbs with parties of three. I don't climb in parties of three that often and there wasn't an option for pancakes, so I voted the middle option, but it does speed things up considerably when climbing in threes.
What am I missing? I've climbed for decades on half-ropes using an ATC or Pyramid and have never had problems belaying or being belayed.
Whatever, rob.calm
Good for you. Neither have I. I like how easy it is to use the autolock feature on both devices.
What's it to you? Are the Guide and Reverso not safe? Are they so less convenient that there's no reason to use them?
Greg
The few times I’ve been with climbers using auto-lock devices, I have not been impressed by any special convenience associated with them (this is not in reference to the Gri-Gri, which certainly has its place in sport climb). For example, once I was following. a leader who had fallen on a stopper. Coming second I had a hard time getting it out so I climbed above it at which point I saw that to get it out I needed to be lower. For him to release rope for me to downclimb was troublesome. Another time the lead climber used an auto-lock device and when I got to the belay shelf, I realized the device was tied directly into the anchor. That was a place where the belayer could easily have situated herself so that it would have been hard for me to pull her off even if there were no anchor. We had a talk about using whatever is available for making oneself secure and looking at what nature provides--a habit that would not develop using auto-lockers that need to be tied into the anchor.
From this thread, I did learn they might be helpful on easy alpine terrain with a party of 3. I don’t see how they are useful in using half-ropes on crag climbs. If somebody could explain why they are more “convenient” for that purpose, I’d like to hear about it.
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