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Jamis21
Oct 6, 2008, 5:59 AM
Post #1 of 8
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Registered: Nov 2, 2007
Posts: 26
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It’s been a while since the last one. They’re so exciting. Let’s start another.
I’ve got a few questions for the intrepid owners out there who built and still run their own gym and their long time employees:
Do you recommend membership in CWA, OIA and AF for a startup and why/why not? Any others I didn’t list?
Do you have insurance through Stratus or are there others hiding out there? If Stratus, do you use their property and worker's comp too?
If you have other insurance and are not with CWA, are you or your managers certified Rock Wall Instructors? Why/ why not?
Does anyone know of a more recent Climbing Gym Market Survey than the 2002 model? Was that one even worth it?
Did you have ElDo, Rockwerx, Nicro, etc. plan and build your walls? Did you think to yourself after it was complete, “Hell, I could’ve done that myself.”? With 20/20 hindsight, would you now recommend the consult package only and subcontract it yourself?
I’m certain the birthday parties will be a major source of revenue, if not the biggest, for the first couple of years. With that in mind, is 50% (kids, n00bs, 5.6ish), 30% (intermediate, 5.8ish) and 20% (actual gym climbers, 5.10+) a decent way to divide up the climbing terrain?
How many of you have tried making your own holds and failed miserably? Like one of the sites said, if you can bake cookies, you can make holds. Are the pro hold makers really that far ahead? I thought if they’re strong and kid friendly, how hard could it be to fill up the gumby area? I’ve got a retired uncle who’d really fit the bill. He wouldn’t even need to use a respirator for the fumes. It seems like a couple grand could generate enough holds to last 10 years.
My business plan is just short of $600,000 now, without the fees the Big Boys would charge to construct the walls from the ground up. Through this site, I contacted Dief from Phoenix and I gotta say he has me sold. I can do this! I can build my own damn walls.
I’ve tinkered with it for a couple of years, put the plan aside for months at a time, but I keep coming back to it. I’ve got a few loose ends to tie up, but I’ve taken a leave of absence and I’m working on it full time now. I'm getting close to pulling the trigger. Someone talk me outta this before I quit my cushy Fed job.
Save the “Search the forums for past losers like yourself.” and the “In this economy? Are you high?” stuff. No wait, add them too. They’re usually a pretty fun read.
‘kay…bring it.
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jt512
Oct 6, 2008, 9:53 AM
Post #2 of 8
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Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
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Jamis21 wrote: It’s been a while since the last one. They’re so exciting. Let’s start another. I’ve got a few questions for the intrepid owners out there who built and still run their own gym and their long time employees: Do you recommend membership in CWA, OIA and AF for a startup and why/why not? Any others I didn’t list? Do you have insurance through Stratus or are there others hiding out there? If Stratus, do you use their property and worker's comp too? If you have other insurance and are not with CWA, are you or your managers certified Rock Wall Instructors? Why/ why not? Does anyone know of a more recent Climbing Gym Market Survey than the 2002 model? Was that one even worth it? Did you have ElDo, Rockwerx, Nicro, etc. plan and build your walls? Did you think to yourself after it was complete, “Hell, I could’ve done that myself.”? With 20/20 hindsight, would you now recommend the consult package only and subcontract it yourself? I’m certain the birthday parties will be a major source of revenue, if not the biggest, for the first couple of years. With that in mind, is 50% (kids, n00bs, 5.6ish), 30% (intermediate, 5.8ish) and 20% (actual gym climbers, 5.10+) a decent way to divide up the climbing terrain? How many of you have tried making your own holds and failed miserably? Like one of the sites said, if you can bake cookies, you can make holds. Are the pro hold makers really that far ahead? I thought if they’re strong and kid friendly, how hard could it be to fill up the gumby area? I’ve got a retired uncle who’d really fit the bill. He wouldn’t even need to use a respirator for the fumes. It seems like a couple grand could generate enough holds to last 10 years. My business plan is just short of $600,000 now, without the fees the Big Boys would charge to construct the walls from the ground up. Through this site, I contacted Dief from Phoenix and I gotta say he has me sold. I can do this! I can build my own damn walls. I’ve tinkered with it for a couple of years, put the plan aside for months at a time, but I keep coming back to it. I’ve got a few loose ends to tie up, but I’ve taken a leave of absence and I’m working on it full time now. I'm getting close to pulling the trigger. Someone talk me outta this before I quit my cushy Fed job. Save the “Search the forums for past losers like yourself.” and the “In this economy? Are you high?” stuff. No wait, add them too. They’re usually a pretty fun read. ‘kay…bring it.
Every gym I've been to has the majority of routes 5.10 and up.
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yodadave
Oct 6, 2008, 11:38 AM
Post #3 of 8
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Registered: Feb 11, 2008
Posts: 510
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can your community support another recreational sport?
is anyone else nearby planning one??
I was pretty close to doing the same thing and then the local Uni opened one and suddenly my target market all had a free place to climb with Uni paid belay slaves 
I'd be interested what kind of market research you've done?
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lancebrock
Oct 6, 2008, 12:02 PM
Post #4 of 8
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Registered: Jan 16, 2003
Posts: 156
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most of my advice is here: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...;;page=unread#unread
i used rockwerx and was very happy.
join the cwa because it is the right thing to do. if you don't like that, do it for the insurance discount. i support the af because they help keep climbing areas open for the climbers from my gym.
assuming parties are any real source of revenue is not necessarily correct. it depends on your mission statement, market, location, design, etc.
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gogounou
Oct 6, 2008, 7:16 PM
Post #5 of 8
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Registered: Jul 20, 2006
Posts: 542
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I'd second jt512 on this one: Most gyms that I've visited don't have the routes weighted as you describe. Most favor - if not 5.10 and up - at least 5.9 and up. Certainly, having a percentage of your terrain rated for childrens' birthday parties is going to be a necessary part of the game, but 50%? How many 6 year-olds do you envision saying, "Gee, that 5.5 was ok, but it was just like the last one. I wish they would vary these things a bit,"?
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Jamis21
Oct 6, 2008, 7:29 PM
Post #6 of 8
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Registered: Nov 2, 2007
Posts: 26
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I don’t want to get too specific before Becky at the bank gives me the green light, but the proposed city has a population near 50,000. Within 10 miles of the city limits it jumps to just over 100,000. The youth sports programs average 1000 participants each season (Little League, city soccer league, football/cheerleading, etc). There is a small college and several trade and other ‘training’ schools primarily aimed at 18 – 22 year olds.
I haven’t hired a big time market research team, but I’ve been covertly pressing the flesh for a number of years. The folks at the local Small Business Development Center have been quite helpful, dare I say excited about the project and I’ve dug up some other interesting stuff just surfing the webz (SCORE, SBA, Census, RC.com, etc). I’ve also been coaching youth sports for a few years and have gotten positive feedback from kids and parents without actually giving anything away.
I joined CWA about a year ago, the last time I got serious about kicking this thing off. I too like walks on the beach lance, albeit short ones, not long. I haven’t done the OIA or AF memberships yet, but it’s programmed into the yearly expense column once I’m up and running. The gyms I’ve been to have always had a few 5.6s for the nubs and chubs. I’m really planning on a large chunk of revenue coming from the booger eaters. I may need to rethink the 50/30/20 split, but keep in mind this isn’t going to be a locals only, +5 Ape Index required kind of place. I’ve got an expansion planned into the design to add a couple thousand sq ft of respectable terrain, but I don’t see the need for the first few years. I may be underestimating things though. Yeah, that 50/30/20 sounds pretty asinine. Who do I make the check out to? Rockwerx Inc.? $ 2 0 0 0 and no/100.... Pocket change.
I know the numbers sound incredibly low unless it’s going to be a $10 million facility in downtown Boulder with Hooters girls in harnesses climbing up to your port-a-ledge with cold beer and hot wings, but stay with me here. Because it is such a small town, there aren’t a whole lot of options for recreation and the sidewalks rollup at 10:00 p.m. There isn’t a large active climbing base here, but there is a handful of die hards. The closest gym is ~80 miles away and it's pretty damn good. A lot of people around here have reportedly been there and loved it, but it's too far away to become a regular for most. There’s also a large segment of the population here who are already primed to go and there’s an underused spot nearby to do the real thing. The mission statement revolves around community, not climbing community, so I’m aiming this thing at the 5 – 22 year old demographic, and their parents of course. I’m convinced I can easily draw $7,000 a month within the first year of operation if I program it right. That’ll be right at break even, give a nickel or two, but it covers the monthly bills including my salary. I’ve also got a kicker thrown in for extra income, but I’m not gonna let that slip just yet. I definitely foresee Ramen in my future for the next couple of years.
I think I’ve got the big nuts you spoke of, either that or I am just in my own fiscal world. Oh, ‘turn the nut’ was it? I can cover over a third of the deal on my own and with my credit score, background and a little back up from the SBA, I think I’m swinging a pretty big monkey wrench at this little bolt. Oops, just checked the market. I can cover 25% of this deal, no, 20%.....
I don't really have the dedication required to write a weekly blog about my progress like the last victim, but I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. Is it?
(This post was edited by Jamis21 on Oct 6, 2008, 7:42 PM)
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AlexCV
Oct 6, 2008, 7:43 PM
Post #7 of 8
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Registered: Jan 25, 2008
Posts: 283
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I think the gym I go to has about 20% to 30% of the terrain with "easy" routes. This includes an entire three-sided structure of basically all 5.5ish terrain. They use this for kid's, basic belay course (which they run 2-3 of on most nights) and beginners.
Another 20% or so is 5.7 or 5.8. The next slice is probably around 35% 5.9 to 5.11a which is what the majority of customers can do. Whatever's left is harder up to about .13+ give or take (there are currently five .12a or harder routes).
That said the gym rates fairly hard (consistent with Dacks / Val-D grades, not soft). This works well for them. Probably 50% of the customer base couldn't do a .9+)
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djlachelt
Oct 6, 2008, 8:39 PM
Post #8 of 8
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Registered: Sep 26, 2005
Posts: 261
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I agree with Lance... join the CWA because it's the right thing to do. Help grow the industry while you grow your business. Also, go to the CWA Summit in the spring. The contacts you'll make there are invaluable, and you can easily get the answers to questions like you are posing here.
As for dividing up the terrain... this is not an exact answer to your question... but Rich Johnston (owner of the Vertical World gyms in Seattle area) said in one of his sessions at the '07 CWA Summit, that when he made his setters focus on setting quality moderates (5.7-5.9) he saw his revenue go up. I think the point was that people that came in and were immediately successful they were more likely to come back. And when they did come back, they had more/different routes to try at their ability level.
Couple that with your target clientele mix and I think you can extrapolate to determining your terrain mix. You want to make sure you have enough terrain that your setters can make lots of good moderates.
That said, I wonder what you are thinking when you say, "50% (kids, nOObs, 5.6ish)". The gyms that I climb at have TR walls (not counting lead walls) that are mostly vertical (some slightly overhanging, some good slab)... and there's everything from 5.6 to 5.11 and .12 on the same walls. The lead wall is all over-hanging of course, and is virtually always >=5.10.
So I'd say decide how much lead terrain you want based on your expected clientele, and then have a good variety of vert, slab, overhanging, roofs in your TR area. With that your setters can create the mix you want from month to month regardless of the exact type of terrain.
This is also the kind of thing that Rockwerx, or Eldo could help you think through, and design terrain that helps you achieve your business goals.
You could talk with the guys at: http://www.indoorclimbing.com.au/ about making the holds. There was an article/interview with them over at Routesetter.com (see the article "Setting to New Heights in OZ"). They make virtually all of their own holds I think... but I've not visited any US gyms that do so, though there must be some.
As for building yourself... I've no direct experience one way or the other, but I suspect the main issue there is Time to Market/Time to Revenue. Rockwerx and Eldo are fast. While you're arranging your building, lease, etc they are getting ready with the design and can hit the ground running. If you build it yourself, I suspect you'll be building your walls for months. So, yea, you can certainly do it yourself, but how many months earlier would you open your doors if they build it? At least factor that into your business plan. Also, will your lender/investors look on you more favorably if you are working with a professional organization that has a proven track record. Ask Cort from RW how many of the gyms he's built are still in business and how successful they are?
Best of luck - do post back when you take the plunge.
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