Nov 19, 2008, 12:50 PM
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Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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Often the discussion on Gyms being whats wrong with climbing flares up.
To be honest, I dont see many individuals from a gym going outside causing chaos and problems. I have a seen a high success rate of individuals leaving the gym to outside climbing in my community. Success being measured by but not limited to: outdoor etiquette, responsibility, accountability and behavior.
I understand this to not be true in all areas.
What seems to really cause problems in my experience are programs such as Meetup.com where any extremely unqualified jackass can take a group to nearby crag.
Or Boyscouts.
In the case of WVUCLMBR his experienced was mostly that Pittsborough Explorers Club.
Most documented cases are not exactly gym related with direct gym representation.
Lets discuss I suppose, just interested in some trends maybe.
(This post was edited by MikeSaint on Nov 19, 2008, 1:07 PM)
Nov 19, 2008, 1:05 PM
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Re: [MikeSaint] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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Gyms breed complacency.
While there may be a lot of strong climbers that come out of gyms the number of good competent climbers is rather small or nonexistant. Knowing how to hold the rope or pull hard does not equal competent.
Nov 19, 2008, 1:09 PM
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Re: [MikeSaint] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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As far as fastfood mentality, gyms are at the forefront along with mass marketing and easy bolted climbs that make it feel safe an convenient to move outside.
Nov 19, 2008, 1:55 PM
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Re: [dingus] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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dingus wrote:
Gyms aren't the problem... PEOPLE are.
DMT
I think this bears repeating.
As for the fact that climbing is a gym generates complacentsy (which I cant spell) that is total bull. While I certainly believe that while climbing in a gym there is less to check and double check, this in no way implies that when I go outside, all of a sudden I am, like, "la lala lala" pushing rocks off on my belayer, not checking the rock if it is quality, either to hang from or to plug, checking my knots, taking care to be redundant, wearing a fucking brain bucket, backing off routes I have no buisness on, etc.. I dont disagree that people are out there, doing stupid shit. But that happens everywhere. Take for example the new trend of bikers (bicyclists_ wearing ipods while they ride. How stupid! "ON YOUR FUCKING LEFT, YOU IPOD WEARING FUCKTARD!" Stupidity is everywhere. Gyms dont breed it. People do.
Nov 19, 2008, 2:26 PM
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Re: [chossmonkey] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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chossmonkey wrote:
Gyms breed complacency.
While there may be a lot of strong climbers that come out of gyms the number of good competent climbers is rather small or nonexistant. Knowing how to hold the rope or pull hard does not equal competent.
No they don't. They just provide easier access for complacent people. THere is no demise of climbing. This is just an excuse for people to complain about something. WIth the increasing interest in climbing from a lot of different user groups, the problems are unavoidable. This goes for anything now a days. It is part of our culture. Gyms provide an important need for some people, but just like any business, there are really good ones, and really bad ones. Most of them fall in the middle somewhere.
Nov 19, 2008, 2:50 PM
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Re: [carbonrx8] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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carbonrx8 wrote:
Take for example the new trend of bikers (bicyclists_ wearing ipods while they ride. How stupid! "ON YOUR FUCKING LEFT, YOU IPOD WEARING FUCKTARD!" Stupidity is everywhere. Gyms dont breed it. People do.
I wear an ipod while I ride. If you call me a fucktard I will fucking kill you. ipods aren't a problem.
I also learned to climb in a gym. It was great. Gyms aren't the problem.
There are lots of areas with lots of wankers. There are also lots of areas with few to no wankers. If you find yourself climbing in an area with lots of wankers... you just might be a wanker yourself.
Nov 19, 2008, 3:01 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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THis may be just me, but after learning to climb indoors and taking those skills outdoors, the change in enviroment, culture and climbing style was sooo different that actually leaving the relative safty of the gym made me and all my climbing partners actually safer. since we knew it wasn't a gym and that there was no padded floor or staff to watch out for trouble, we became more diligent then ever with everything...triple checks and melon protectors..
Seems its the simple rule of life...STUPID PEOPLE ARE EVERYWHERE, and so gyms just happen to be easier to find for the average joe moron then your local crag.
I agree, its not gyms, its people.
Depending on where you live and ride your bike I'd have to question your judgement on Ipod wearing..in a city like where I come from, you would 100% be described as not only a fucktard, but a hazard to everyone else around you, and potentially get a ticket for it..or get crushed by cars who don't give a fuck about you......but thats you call...
I will patiently wait for you to execute me now : )
Nov 19, 2008, 3:10 PM
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Re: [Parkerkat] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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Parkerkat wrote:
Depending on where you live and ride your bike I'd have to question your judgement on Ipod wearing..in a city like where I come from, you would 100% be described as not only a fucktard, but a hazard to everyone else around you, and potentially get a ticket for it..or get crushed by cars who don't give a fuck about you......but thats you call...
I will patiently wait for you to execute me now : )
Well, the chances of you catching me are nil, so it will have to wait.
Everybody gets all butthurt by what other people do. They get bent when climbing when someone on the trail says something. They get bent when someone on a bike has an ipod. People are just looking to get bent about something that doesn't really affect them.
Nov 19, 2008, 3:13 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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fair enough...and its totally your life your dealing with.. but to me riding a bike with an ipod is like starting a climb with a rope thats frayed inthe middle... sure it might hold...sure you might get away just fine, but why risk it ya know? You seem like a good climbing and active person! LIVE DAMMIT!!! ..... LIVE!!!!!!!
Nov 19, 2008, 3:27 PM
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Re: [MikeSaint] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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Gyms are the future of climbing. Somewhere there is not just one 4 yr old leading 5.10 outside, but hundreds of 4 yr olds spending all day on plastic. They will grow up with tendons, arm strength, and technique that will make 5.15 the new 5.10. They will look at anyone now over 20 and wonder how they ever got as good as they did and wonder why they never started in a gym. It is a question of numbers; the number of kids under 12 who have exposure to some form of climbing on plastic is simply huge. It is as inevitable as hockey being an indoor sport, outdoor gear being fashion, and national parks with cell phone reception.
And don’t even begin to think about what will happen when the Chinese gymnastics children prison camps training academies begin to concentrate on turning out climbers.
And, boy scouts don’t do anything but work on their belt loop awards.
Nov 19, 2008, 3:42 PM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
Gyms breed complacency.
While there may be a lot of strong climbers that come out of gyms the number of good competent climbers is rather small or nonexistant. Knowing how to hold the rope or pull hard does not equal competent.
No they don't. They just provide easier access for complacent people. THere is no demise of climbing. This is just an excuse for people to complain about something. WIth the increasing interest in climbing from a lot of different user groups, the problems are unavoidable. This goes for anything now a days. It is part of our culture. Gyms provide an important need for some people, but just like any business, there are really good ones, and really bad ones. Most of them fall in the middle somewhere.
Josh
I think is a chicken or the egg problem. Are more n00bs being created or were they always n00bs and always will be?
Gyms have created a different climbing community, different attitudes, different ethics. They make things accessible and people like that. Some want to extend that to outdoor climbing too. Should we bring climbing to thier level instead of them being serious enough about climbing to start leading bolted 5.10s outside?
Nov 19, 2008, 3:47 PM
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Re: [MikeSaint] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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It depends on the gym and its alphas and or instructors(who are the roll models ). (given they will not learn good outdoor form inside among other things (.)) if the alphas are aggressive disrespectful fucks. So will be most of the offspring that gym produces.
If a n00b goes to gym to learn, they see everyone act a certain way. they will begin to act that way as well in time .
Same , if the teacher is not good in any of said social groups , you will have the same outcome with its offspring.
Nov 19, 2008, 3:52 PM
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Re: [yetanotherdave] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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yetanotherdave wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
carbonrx8 wrote:
..."ON YOUR FUCKING LEFT, YOU IPOD WEARING FUCKTARD!" Stupidity is everywhere. Gyms dont breed it. People do.
I wear an ipod while I ride. If you call me a fucktard I will fucking kill you. ipods aren't a problem.
you are a fucktard
and I don't have to take your other threat too seriously, since you'll probably end up under a bus pretty soon anyway...
You judgmental fucks are too funny! There's no busses where I ride jackass! Very little traffic, and what little traffic there is, I can hear coming despite the ipod.
I've thought about it before as well. You hear a car coming behind you, what do you do? I sure don't look at it. I stay on the right and let it go by me. SOmetimes its 6 feet from my shoulder, and sometimes its 6 inches. Can't control that, and it happens whether you've got an ipod on or not.
Thanks for predicting my death, you fucking wanker.
Nov 19, 2008, 3:57 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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caughtinside wrote:
Parkerkat wrote:
Depending on where you live and ride your bike I'd have to question your judgement on Ipod wearing..in a city like where I come from, you would 100% be described as not only a fucktard, but a hazard to everyone else around you, and potentially get a ticket for it..or get crushed by cars who don't give a fuck about you......but thats you call...
I will patiently wait for you to execute me now : )
Well, the chances of you catching me are nil, so it will have to wait.
Everybody gets all butthurt by what other people do. They get bent when climbing when someone on the trail says something. They get bent when someone on a bike has an ipod. People are just looking to get bent about something that doesn't really affect them.
If you ride on public street in CA with earbuds you are violating traffic law. Simple as that - its illegal.
Nov 19, 2008, 4:00 PM
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Re: [MikeSaint] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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I agree with the fact there are stupid people everywhere. Gyms aren't the demise of climbing, but like a sponge on your sink they do help to breed more stupid people. The relative safety of the gym combined with the general lack of instruction or supervision is scary indeed. How the hell do people deck in a gym??? People don't just "go outside" (for the most part) without some kind of instruction or aid of a more informed person. The gym however will let any yayhoo with $15 and a belay device have at it. Then they go outside and do silly silly things.
I've been on plenty of climbs where you can tell who the gym rats are and they do some scary shit. Like when my friend saved a few of them from rapping off the back of Friday's Folly on the 3rd Flatiron. You need double ropes goofball!! I watch the way they belay their partners and that scares me too and I'm inclined to agree with the complaceny idea. The belayer is using a gri-gri, looking at the ground or the girl next to him. Skills only tranfer from the gym to the crag if you've learned those skills to begin with.
Climbing hard in the gym means you only climb hard in the gym..nothing more...it doesn't automatically make you an outdoor climber.
Nov 19, 2008, 4:03 PM
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Re: [dingus] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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dingus wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
Parkerkat wrote:
Depending on where you live and ride your bike I'd have to question your judgement on Ipod wearing..in a city like where I come from, you would 100% be described as not only a fucktard, but a hazard to everyone else around you, and potentially get a ticket for it..or get crushed by cars who don't give a fuck about you......but thats you call...
I will patiently wait for you to execute me now : )
Well, the chances of you catching me are nil, so it will have to wait.
Everybody gets all butthurt by what other people do. They get bent when climbing when someone on the trail says something. They get bent when someone on a bike has an ipod. People are just looking to get bent about something that doesn't really affect them.
If you ride on public street in CA with earbuds you are violating traffic law. Simple as that - its illegal.
Nov 19, 2008, 4:09 PM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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granite_grrl wrote:
blueeyedclimber wrote:
chossmonkey wrote:
Gyms breed complacency.
While there may be a lot of strong climbers that come out of gyms the number of good competent climbers is rather small or nonexistant. Knowing how to hold the rope or pull hard does not equal competent.
No they don't. They just provide easier access for complacent people. THere is no demise of climbing. This is just an excuse for people to complain about something. WIth the increasing interest in climbing from a lot of different user groups, the problems are unavoidable. This goes for anything now a days. It is part of our culture. Gyms provide an important need for some people, but just like any business, there are really good ones, and really bad ones. Most of them fall in the middle somewhere.
Josh
I think is a chicken or the egg problem. Are more n00bs being created or were they always n00bs and always will be?
Gyms have created a different climbing community, different attitudes, different ethics. They make things accessible and people like that. Some want to extend that to outdoor climbing too. Should we bring climbing to thier level instead of them being serious enough about climbing to start leading bolted 5.10s outside?
I think it's the combination of gyms and numbers that is at fault. A strong kid climbs a 5.11 in the gym, then sees an older guy, who has climbed El Cap, come in to the gym, and sketch a bit on the same route. The kid feels pretty good about himself, and thinks (naturally) he's as good or better than the old guy.
He doesn't realize he's only better at indoor climbing.
That said, I like what Toast said. Gyms are the future. You kids nowadays get so strong so fast.
(This post was edited by onceahardman on Nov 19, 2008, 4:10 PM)
Nov 19, 2008, 4:10 PM
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Re: [caughtinside] Is it really: Gyms are the Demise of Climbing?
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caughtinside wrote:
carbonrx8 wrote:
Take for example the new trend of bikers (bicyclists_ wearing ipods while they ride. How stupid! "ON YOUR FUCKING LEFT, YOU IPOD WEARING FUCKTARD!" Stupidity is everywhere. Gyms dont breed it. People do.
I wear an ipod while I ride. If you call me a fucktard I will fucking kill you. ipods aren't a problem.
If you are the guy that swerved into me this summer AFTER I called left, then you were just about succesful in killing me, you ipod wearing fucktard. Hope you enjoyed that road rash.
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