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zeke_sf
Nov 27, 2008, 6:13 PM
Post #51 of 82
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ja1484 wrote: Belaying directly off the anchor reduces impact forces in a fall by the second roughly 60% compared to a redirect belay. Obviously, belaying directly off the harness is a different beast. I totally missed that the first time I read your post. Over top of all this, we're talking about falls by the second, which are minimal force to begin with and not even felt by a suitable anchor, regardless of the belay configuration.
Actually, I believe you brought up fall force as a primary consideration for belaying off the anchor. You are correct about the redirect though, I looked up that information to refresh my memory and it does, according to vivalargo's newest "Climbing Anchors" book, increase the force exerted on the anchor by almost two-fold (as compared to, I presume, off the harness? it is not clear). I guess I was somewhat aware of this as I only ever redirect on good bolts.
It's also from his writing that I infer the direct belay exerts more force on the anchor than directly off the harness, since he says to make absolutely sure the anchor is stout before employing it since there isn't a body in the belay chain to help absorb the force. Another point to consider is that every time I've followed somebody who used direct belays via reverso or guide, they took a considerably longer time to rig their anchor. It may just be the people I climbed with, but, personally, I'd consider using it only after considering the context of the particular pitch, the second's ability to follow at the grade, the likelihood you think you may have to escape the belay, etc.. I've been at a short 3-pitcher at a very popular crag only to sit around seemingly forever while dude rigs his belay on a climb I followed in 1/3 or less the time. Overkill. In short (hahaha), I would say, yes, different strokes, but that anybody using direct belays should keep in mind it is not an appropriate technique for every situation. That's climbing, I guess.
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ja1484
Nov 27, 2008, 6:40 PM
Post #52 of 82
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zeke_sf wrote: ja1484 wrote: Belaying directly off the anchor reduces impact forces in a fall by the second roughly 60% compared to a redirect belay. Obviously, belaying directly off the harness is a different beast. I totally missed that the first time I read your post. Over top of all this, we're talking about falls by the second, which are minimal force to begin with and not even felt by a suitable anchor, regardless of the belay configuration. Actually, I believe you brought up fall force as a primary consideration for belaying off the anchor. You are correct about the redirect though, I looked up that information to refresh my memory and it does, according to vivalargo's newest "Climbing Anchors" book, increase the force exerted on the anchor by almost two-fold (as compared to, I presume, off the harness? it is not clear). I guess I was somewhat aware of this as I only ever redirect on good bolts.
As compared to a direct belay, or any other situation where the equipment is directly responsible for stopping the load of the falling climber.
Think of it this way: If a second falls, the force has to be stopped by the rope. If the rope is secured directly at the anchor, then that fall force is the only force acting on the anchor.
However, if there's a redirect, the rope is simply sliding through a carabiner at the anchor. Thus, the fall force must be matched, minus friction through the carabiner, on the other side (belay side) of the redirect carabiner in order to arrest the fall.
Without getting too gnarly on the details, it's been found that friction on the top piece/redirect is usually 30 - 40%, meaning the arresting force needs to be about 60% of the fall force.
Thus, with the fall AND arresting forces both acting on the redirect carabiner, the anchor overall sees 160% of the fall force, vs. 100% with a direct belay.
Again, this should all be academic. Most anchors people would be willing to use should be able to withstand forces far in excess of a factor 1 fall, which is the worst theoretical fall a second can take.
In reply to: I would say, yes, different strokes, but that anybody using direct belays should keep in mind it is not an appropriate technique for every situation. That's climbing, I guess.
You just summarized the activity 
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stickyfingerz
Nov 27, 2008, 8:08 PM
Post #53 of 82
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FWIW,
When I'm working at the shop and get asked about a beginner belay device, the ATC XP is my go-to guy. It does everything you need it to do, and nothing you don't.
With all of the sub 10 ropes in use now, I personally don't feel comfortable sending newbies out with an old-style ATC anymore.
Some will argue that the guide or reverso3 are worth the xtra $$$ so that you'll have the device when you finally know enough to use it. Until then, you just use it like a regular tube.
Well, if the newbie is anything like me, s/he'll find the temptation to explore the other functions of the device irresistible (autoblock, ascender, etc.) and possibly get into a dangerous situation. Best to limit the amount of proverbial rope they have to hang themselves with, in my opinion.
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thatguyat99
Nov 27, 2008, 8:33 PM
Post #54 of 82
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I use either the old ATC or a munter hitch.
If I take anyone new out, I spend a significant
amount of time with them on belaying with the
ATC.
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binrat
Nov 27, 2008, 9:36 PM
Post #55 of 82
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I like Stitch plate, then cinch, then ATC guide.
binrat
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hafilax
Nov 27, 2008, 9:59 PM
Post #56 of 82
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[Only partially directed at Binrat but also to all the people with similar replies]
Can you even buy Sticht Plates any more?
How useful is a Gri-gri or a cinch if you only have one belay device? The Gri-gri isn't even recommended by Petzl for climbing on gear so why would a book author go against that?
If someone asked you to recommend their first belay device for trad climbing would you really recommend a Sticht Plate or a Cinch before a tube device?
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moose_droppings
Nov 27, 2008, 10:23 PM
Post #57 of 82
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hafilax wrote: [Only partially directed at Binrat but also to all the people with similar replies] Can you even buy Sticht Plates any more?
Yep, right here
In reply to: If someone asked you to recommend their first belay device for trad climbing would you really recommend a Sticht Plate or a Cinch before a tube device?
Sure, both the sticht plate and tube style are rigged in a similar way. Even an ATC needs explained to a first time user.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Nov 27, 2008, 10:28 PM)
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vivalargo
Nov 27, 2008, 10:30 PM
Post #58 of 82
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Thanks, Peeps, and Happy Thanksgiving to all.
This discussion pretty much confirmed the party line on all of this: No static belay devices for trad (gear) routes (i.e., Gri Gri, Cinch, et al). Old ATC, Lowe Tuber, etc. for fuzzy fat gym ropes and thick lines sometimes used on multi-pitch adventure climbs, and Reverso 3 and ATC Guide-style devices for thin sport lines.
Though Stict Plates (haven't seen one in ages) and Muntner hitches will work, they seem to be rather obscure articles/techniques these days, no?
This all sound about right??
JL
(This post was edited by vivalargo on Nov 27, 2008, 10:31 PM)
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hafilax
Nov 27, 2008, 10:34 PM
Post #59 of 82
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Wow, you can still get them. I'm amazed.
My opinion stands but I did go back and read the OP. I had subconsciously attached this question to the equalette thread which pertained to the new anchors book whereas this was more of an open question.
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the_climber
Nov 27, 2008, 10:42 PM
Post #60 of 82
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vivalargo wrote: Though Stict Plates (haven't seen one in ages) and Muntner hitches will work, they seem to be rather obscure articles/techniques these days, no? This all sound about right?? JL
I use a stitch plate and a munter far more often than an ATC, so do at least 4 others I climb with.
I still use belay plate combo type devices too, Reverso/Trango Magic/ect
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dingus
Nov 28, 2008, 1:18 PM
Post #61 of 82
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jt512 wrote: vivalargo wrote: Got to recommend one to the masses. I still use an old ATC. And you? Thanks, JL The old-style ATCs are scary with modern thin ropes; I do not believe that the average climber could hold a severe lead fall with one. I consider the device essentially obsolete. Jay
Absolutely agree with this statement JT. A 9.2 in an ATC would be very easy to lose control of. Given the modern trend toward ever skinnier ropes its probably time BD retired this design. I swore em off after those 8.1 mil raps - scariest raps of my life, literally.
DMT
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dingus
Nov 28, 2008, 1:19 PM
Post #62 of 82
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vivalargo wrote: Thanks, Peeps, and Happy Thanksgiving to all. This discussion pretty much confirmed the party line on all of this: No static belay devices for trad (gear) routes (i.e., Gri Gri, Cinch, et al). Old ATC, Lowe Tuber, etc. for fuzzy fat gym ropes and thick lines sometimes used on multi-pitch adventure climbs, and Reverso 3 and ATC Guide-style devices for thin sport lines. Though Stict Plates (haven't seen one in ages) and Muntner hitches will work, they seem to be rather obscure articles/techniques these days, no? This all sound about right?? JL
Yes, unless you're German, then reverse the entire list. haha
DMT
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sbaclimber
Nov 28, 2008, 1:23 PM
Post #63 of 82
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dingus wrote: vivalargo wrote: Thanks, Peeps, and Happy Thanksgiving to all. This discussion pretty much confirmed the party line on all of this: No static belay devices for trad (gear) routes (i.e., Gri Gri, Cinch, et al). Old ATC, Lowe Tuber, etc. for fuzzy fat gym ropes and thick lines sometimes used on multi-pitch adventure climbs, and Reverso 3 and ATC Guide-style devices for thin sport lines. Though Stict Plates (haven't seen one in ages) and Muntner hitches will work, they seem to be rather obscure articles/techniques these days, no? This all sound about right?? JL Yes, unless you're German, then reverse the entire list. haha DMT 
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Goo
Nov 29, 2008, 5:56 AM
Post #64 of 82
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atc
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jt512
Nov 29, 2008, 6:05 AM
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rip
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zeke_sf
Nov 29, 2008, 6:19 AM
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dna
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Goo
Nov 29, 2008, 6:51 AM
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tla
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qwert
Nov 29, 2008, 12:18 PM
Post #68 of 82
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dingus wrote: vivalargo wrote: Thanks, Peeps, and Happy Thanksgiving to all. This discussion pretty much confirmed the party line on all of this: No static belay devices for trad (gear) routes (i.e., Gri Gri, Cinch, et al). Old ATC, Lowe Tuber, etc. for fuzzy fat gym ropes and thick lines sometimes used on multi-pitch adventure climbs, and Reverso 3 and ATC Guide-style devices for thin sport lines. Though Stict Plates (haven't seen one in ages) and Muntner hitches will work, they seem to be rather obscure articles/techniques these days, no? This all sound about right?? JL Yes, unless you're German, then reverse the entire list. haha DMT
*raises hand*
german here. While i wouldnt reverse the entire list, the munter is definitely quite popular here (and rightfully so).
ATC and similar devices gain popolarity (mostly on cost of the fig 8), but the munter is still somewhat of a standart.
I can not really say if i would recommend the munter as "the" device, but it is something that should be known. Has a high breaking force, and is not too dependant on the orientation of the break rope. It just sucks for rappeling (you really should have another device with you for that) and for lowering you should have the breaking hand upwards, to avoind twisting of the rope, but apart from that its quite foolproof.
But i guess the recommendation of an ATC XP style device is good. If you master that, then you should also be able to use about any similar device (Tubes, plates, and so on).
My personal favorite however is the TRE, but i guess its out of production. Maybe edelrid will soon produce an updated version. They already sell one (Zap o mat), but its single rope only.
qwert
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saxfiend
Nov 29, 2008, 2:24 PM
Post #69 of 82
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rgold wrote: I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to using the devices [ATC Guide or Reverso] to belay the second off the anchor. You can't flip them around to the low-friction side in that case, and they really are awful if the ropes are a bit too thick and/or fuzzy.
Of course, this is really not an issue for me anymore as I almost always use double ropes whenever I'm going to be bringing up a second on multi-pitch.
JL
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angry
Nov 29, 2008, 4:26 PM
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FWIW,
I use an ATC-Guide for anything multipitch.
I use a gri-gri for anything single pitch, including trad. I don't worry about the whole dynamic belay issue. I weigh 140lbs, most of my partners weigh a bit more. I end up in the air every time someone falls so I'm not terribly concerned about the whole "static catch" idea.
I do not let my partners use their standard ATC to belay me. If they've got something with grooves, cool. If not, I've got the grigri right there for them. MY ropes are 9.8 and 9.2. As long as your hand doesn't come off the rope, the grigri is great for this and is safer.
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blueeyedclimber
Nov 29, 2008, 6:52 PM
Post #71 of 82
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I use the guide. I like the versitility. I can belay off the anchor or off my harness. I can use it in friction mode or turn it around for less friction (a la old style atc, which i usually do when belaying someone lighter for single pitch sport).
I also use the grigri, but not as much.
Josh
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therat
Nov 29, 2008, 7:25 PM
Post #72 of 82
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It's a REVERSO world we live in...
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tradrenn
Nov 29, 2008, 9:51 PM
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Reverso 3 is #1 for me this days but if the route has a roof in it I would use Munter Hitch.
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SLABMONKEY
Nov 29, 2008, 10:29 PM
Post #75 of 82
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ATC-XP
Trango Belay-8.
Depends on who I am with. The Trango Belay 8 has held a 70ft peeler with no slippage. I know because it picked me up and put me into the wall. I slipped it did not.
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