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jasonstallman
Dec 16, 2008, 2:28 PM
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Hey all...
Just wanted to flag you on this piece we had in today's New York Times and on nytimes.com:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/sports/othersports/16beckey.html?_r=1&em
I was the editor on the story, so please feel free to offer feedback.
Thanks,
Jason Stallman
stallman@nytimes.com
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epoch
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Dec 16, 2008, 2:30 PM
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jasonstallman wrote: Hey all... Just wanted to flag you on this piece we had in today's New York Times and on nytimes.com: http://www.nytimes.com/...key.html?_r=1&em I was the editor on the story, so please feel free to offer feedback. Thanks, Jason Stallman stallman@nytimes.com
CLICKY!!!
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Gmburns2000
Dec 16, 2008, 3:27 PM
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I enjoyed it. Nice read.
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dreday3000
Dec 16, 2008, 3:58 PM
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jasonstallman wrote: Hey all... Just wanted to flag you on this piece we had in today's New York Times and on nytimes.com: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/16/sports/othersports/16beckey.html?_r=1&em I was the editor on the story, so please feel free to offer feedback. Thanks, Jason Stallman stallman@nytimes.com
I've noticed quite a few climbing related NYT articles in the past few years. What is the deal? You starting a new branch in the venerable paper?
Where you responsible for the chongo piece as well?
Good on ya, we enjoy em'
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jasonstallman
Dec 16, 2008, 4:08 PM
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We have started a new branch, of sorts. We've turned Michael Brick loose, challenging him to find the coolest stories out there in the great beyond. Chongo was his first foray.
If you know of anything out there that's particularly compelling, please let us know -- issues, people, whatever.
Jason
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xtremst80
Dec 16, 2008, 4:10 PM
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Nice work. Good read.
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brent_e
Dec 16, 2008, 4:35 PM
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jasonstallman wrote: We have started a new branch, of sorts. We've turned Michael Brick loose, challenging him to find the coolest stories out there in the great beyond. Chongo was his first foray. If you know of anything out there that's particularly compelling, please let us know -- issues, people, whatever. Jason
this is close to home so I'll mention it.
What about an article on the Niagara Glen Access Issue?
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nivlac
Dec 16, 2008, 5:22 PM
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brent_e wrote: jasonstallman wrote: We have started a new branch, of sorts. We've turned Michael Brick loose, challenging him to find the coolest stories out there in the great beyond. Chongo was his first foray. If you know of anything out there that's particularly compelling, please let us know -- issues, people, whatever. Jason this is close to home so I'll mention it. What about an article on the Niagara Glen Access Issue?
Or maybe a general piece on climbing access issues. Climbers, like many recreational land users, face access issues with private landowners, commercial interests (e.g. mining interests), the federal and state government, etc... highlighting some of the major stories would be good to read about.
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skiclimb
Dec 16, 2008, 5:33 PM
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Thanks for the heads up and nice work on the article. Nice to see Climbing get a bit of respectful national coverage. Not to often that we do. Tom Brokaw used to be pretty supportive of climbing but it's been a while since we had much major national outlet unless there was some tragedy to report.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Dec 16, 2008, 5:35 PM)
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fitzontherocks
Dec 16, 2008, 6:16 PM
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Enjoyed the article and the vid. Suggestions? Places like RC.com have danced around it, and the true info may be really hard to find, but we'd all like to see the "climbing is dangerous" idea debunked-- and I'm talking about hard statistics comparing it to other sports, or even accidents in general. If anybody could do it, the Old Gray Lady could.
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Gmburns2000
Dec 16, 2008, 6:24 PM
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fitzontherocks wrote: Enjoyed the article and the vid. Suggestions? Places like RC.com have danced around it, and the true info may be really hard to find, but we'd all like to see the "climbing is dangerous" idea debunked-- and I'm talking about hard statistics comparing it to other sports, or even accidents in general. If anybody could do it, the Old Gray Lady could.
Ditto that.
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the_leech
Dec 16, 2008, 6:49 PM
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fitzontherocks wrote: we'd all like to see the "climbing is dangerous" idea debunked
Yeah, that's a great idea.
NOT!
Been to a friend's funeral who died climbing?
How about two, or three?
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skiclimb
Dec 16, 2008, 7:10 PM
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the_leech wrote: fitzontherocks wrote: we'd all like to see the "climbing is dangerous" idea debunked Yeah, that's a great idea. NOT! Been to a friend's funeral who died climbing? How about two, or three?
Gotta agree..If you beleive that climbing isn't inherintly dangerous you are in denial.
The most dangerous thing about climbing is summed up in an old saying.
To err is human...
You will make mistakes hopefully you'll be lucky enough that they won't kill or injure you or others. I have been so far.
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fitzontherocks
Dec 16, 2008, 7:11 PM
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the_leech wrote: fitzontherocks wrote: we'd all like to see the "climbing is dangerous" idea debunked Yeah, that's a great idea. NOT! Been to a friend's funeral who died climbing? How about two, or three?
Actually, no. If you have, I am genuinely sorry for your loss. An article in a paper won't make them any less dead. But it might make climbers (or critics) more educated.
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the_leech
Dec 16, 2008, 7:29 PM
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fitzontherocks wrote: the_leech wrote: fitzontherocks wrote: we'd all like to see the "climbing is dangerous" idea debunked Yeah, that's a great idea. NOT! Been to a friend's funeral who died climbing? How about two, or three? Actually, no. If you have, I am genuinely sorry for your loss. An article in a paper won't make them any less dead. But it might make climbers (or critics) more educated.
My point is this:
Climbing is dangerous. What would be served by trying to portray it as safe?
To encourage more inexperienced and untrained n00bs to buy a rope and join the crowds at the local crag?
To gain more acceptance of our activity by the general public?
To lower our life insurance premiums?
Most of us will go our entire climbing career without dying or suffering catastrophic injuries from the activity. But some of us won't.
Is climbing more or less dangerous than flying experimental aircraft? Is it more or less dangerous than scuba? Is it more or less dangerous than caving?
I don't know. But I do know that climbing, by the very nature of the activity, is dangerous.
I see no benefit in trying to "debunk" that fact.
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fitzontherocks
Dec 16, 2008, 7:51 PM
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We disagree, and that's perfectly fine. I'll probably never scuba dive or fly an experimental aircraft, but I've seen and heard about them, and I'd like to educate myself more about them. Nobody says climbing ISN'T dangerous, but I'd rather its danger be neither understate nor overstated.
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Gmburns2000
Dec 16, 2008, 8:28 PM
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the_leech wrote: fitzontherocks wrote: we'd all like to see the "climbing is dangerous" idea debunked Yeah, that's a great idea. NOT! Been to a friend's funeral who died climbing? How about two, or three?
I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying comparatively vs other sports. In other words, is there any way to determine how many people die climbing each year versus on the basketball court or football field? What about injuries (that would seem more difficult)?
Kids die from cardiac arrest on the football field each year, but that doesn't mean anyone is running around saying that folks shouldn't play football (even if it, in my opinion, seems potentially more debilitating to the average football player than the average climber), and yet we read about the dangers of playing football all the time as well as see thousands of kids sign up for Pop Warner each year regardless of the potential for injury.
Not discussing it doesn't make it go away, but it does educate.
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Alpinisto
Dec 17, 2008, 3:03 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying comparatively vs other sports. In other words, is there any way to determine how many people die climbing each year versus on the basketball court or football field? What about injuries (that would seem more difficult)? Kids die from cardiac arrest on the football field each year, but that doesn't mean anyone is running around saying that folks shouldn't play football (even if it, in my opinion, seems potentially more debilitating to the average football player than the average climber), and yet we read about the dangers of playing football all the time as well as see thousands of kids sign up for Pop Warner each year regardless of the potential for injury. Not discussing it doesn't make it go away, but it does educate.
Totally agree. But it's the comparisons with other sports where things get complicated. The injury or death rate needs to be per 1,000 participants, per innings played/pitches climbed, etc.
There's no question that the consequences of mistakes/accidents in climbing are orders-of-magnitude more serious than in Little League, adult hockey, over-40 basketball or even full-contact-chess-fu. But pointing out that the mistakes/accidents, while they DO happen, are a small portion of the total vertical feet climbed is important, IMO.
The Great Unwashed Masses hear all about the three guys who died on Hood last winter and the recent tragedy on K2, but they have no idea how many other folks are out on expeditions (not to mention trips to Yos or J-Tree or even weekend cragging), so they think that all climbers must have a death wish, which is about as far from the truth as one could get.
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Gmburns2000
Dec 17, 2008, 2:45 PM
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Alpinisto wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I don't think that's what he's saying. I think he's saying comparatively vs other sports. In other words, is there any way to determine how many people die climbing each year versus on the basketball court or football field? What about injuries (that would seem more difficult)? Kids die from cardiac arrest on the football field each year, but that doesn't mean anyone is running around saying that folks shouldn't play football (even if it, in my opinion, seems potentially more debilitating to the average football player than the average climber), and yet we read about the dangers of playing football all the time as well as see thousands of kids sign up for Pop Warner each year regardless of the potential for injury. Not discussing it doesn't make it go away, but it does educate. Totally agree. But it's the comparisons with other sports where things get complicated. The injury or death rate needs to be per 1,000 participants, per innings played/pitches climbed, etc. There's no question that the consequences of mistakes/accidents in climbing are orders-of-magnitude more serious than in Little League, adult hockey, over-40 basketball or even full-contact-chess-fu. But pointing out that the mistakes/accidents, while they DO happen, are a small portion of the total vertical feet climbed is important, IMO.
I didn't say it would be easy, just interesting.
In reply to: The Great Unwashed Masses hear all about the three guys who died on Hood last winter and the recent tragedy on K2, but they have no idea how many other folks are out on expeditions (not to mention trips to Yos or J-Tree or even weekend cragging), so they think that all climbers must have a death wish, which is about as far from the truth as one could get.
^^ and this is partially why. You hit the nail on the head.
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