ok, I'll play the n00b now, I suppose I am relatively n00bish when it comes to alpinism any way. Is it wrong to tie directly in with a bowline on a bite? I understand the advantage of the alpine butterfly, and have used it, but prefer to tie in directly to save biners.

alright, i guess you were sort of rough, but i did learn some things.

i dont see any other way that i would have learned these things unless i tried to answer the question myself.

i could have just sat here and read the forums or tried to answer the question and got some feedback on it, otherwise you guys wouldnt have told me my flaws in thinking. im sure there are other poeple who may think in the same way as me but dont know the flaws in thier thinking. im sure people have learned something from reading about my bad advice

yeah i have read about tri axial load and that sort of stuff from books but it has yet to stick in my mind as i dont run across it frequently, mostly gym climbing. anyways i dont really give advice to others because in the gym, theres not much to give.

i just think this site would be a lot better if people were more friendly, ive seen other threads and its nasty.
on other forums ive been too, if you flammed poeple would flame on you for flamming.

good day

Actually, many use a giant locking 'hook'. But yes, steel biners are substantially stronger. They are also a *lot* heavier. But I wouldn't say that it is a foregone conclussion that the biner is strong enough for single failure point in climbing.

If you are using static line for top roping and the climber ends up with half a body length of slack, the biner is going to be subjected to more impact force than in it's designed application.

Take a static line - often used in toproping at gyms, and give yourself a 5' fall. Ever had 4-6' of slack in the line by accident (hooked, distracted belayer, whatever)?

Your biners are probably riddled with microfractures.
If you send them to me, I can test them and dispose of them properly.

Who climbs on static line? Climbing gyms? You?

Falling on static line can easily generate dangerous impact forces, which is why anyone who tries it long enough to take a fall quickly realizes their mistake. A gym is particularly sensitive to any act on their part that could be seen as contributing to an injury.

I call bullshit.

Check for yourself. For top roping most climbing gyms use static lines. Certainly the big ones here, like Rockreation, do.

I use static line for anchors, but not top ropes. But you'll see guides do it at Joshua Tree.


If you've ever been to an indoor gym and top roped, you have almsot certainly fallen on static line. So why didn't your spleen shoot out your ass? Because if the climber is properly belayed, the fall is very small and the impact force low, with some dynamic effect from braking. Given the relatively small distnaces involved and the inherent swinging (most walls are vertical to overhanging), static line is generally safer.

Don't believe me and don't believe your eyes when you look? Check out an autobelay setup online. You are falling on a metal cable. Just how much elasticity do you expect from cable?

My point was that even in a seemingly benign situation, like indoor climbing, you can generate forces that are precariously close to the breaking point of an improperly rigged (ex. gate ajar) biner.


Well, you can yell out that giant mutant sea monkeys live in your ass and control your brain by jabbing it with pixie sticks and I'll take your word for it. But in this case, verifiable reality is on my side.

Nevertheless, I would probably trust an aluminium biner in this situation anyway. I mean, ignoring the cross loading issue, which opens a totally different can of worms, an aluminium biner is strong enough for our anchors, or belays, etc., so it stands to reason that it should also be strong enough to hold a climber.

The gyms I have climbed in (Oregon, Washington, Germany) do use dynamic line, everyone I have ever climbed with climbs on dynamic line, and an auto-belay is a steel cable connected to a big spring. If it wasn't your spleen just might shoot out your ass.

Check for yourself. For top roping most climbing gyms use static lines. Certainly the big ones here, like Rockreation, do.

Sorry, but a rope doesn't ever have a strength rating, it has a maximum inpact rating, but is much stronger than that. I don't have any data to back up this claim, but I would think that the rope is by far the strongest link in the climbing system, and much stronger than a carabiners gate closed strength.

I don't know of any gym anywhere that uses static lines (it would be extremely stupid and no insurance company would cover them if they did) and nobody I have ever met (except ignorant noobs) has ever used a static line to toprope.

Common sense goes a long way...

On a related note, in her book on getting into traditional lead climbing, Heidi Pesterfield recommends using locking carabiners to connect the rope to the climbers to simplify changeovers at the belay when leading in blocks.

I would be inclined to say the main reason gyms use static for top roping is a financial reason rather than safety.

More and more you see gyms using "gym ropes", which fall between dynamic and static ropes in terms of their elongation.

ok, I'll play the n00b now, I suppose I am relatively n00bish when it comes to alpinism any way. Is it wrong to tie directly in with a bowline on a bite? I understand the advantage of the alpine butterfly, and have used it, but prefer to tie in directly to save biners.