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I_do
Apr 26, 2009, 7:56 AM
Post #51 of 101
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ja1484 wrote: styndall wrote: You could have just said "Kleimheist." That would save everybody (especially those for whom American dialects of English are foreign) some trouble. Since a Klemheist and an autoblock are not the same thing, that would be kind of disingenuous of me, wouldn't it? In reply to: Also, looking down on someone for not knowing what specific knot 'autoblock' refers to is kinda crappy. Who's looking down on anyone? I told him/her to research it until they knew what it was. That's not looking down on someone, that's teaching self-sufficiency. People should take initiative and responsibility for their own knowledge level anyway.
Even though I may be the "victim" in this case I kinda agree, I could have just done the search. However it was not something that plagued me and I did already know several friction knots so I did not feel I needed to know straight away and figuring just posting the question would probably give me more info anyway. Which it did because now I learned about the Bachman wich I otherwise would have probably missed.
As for the responsibility for my knowledge level, knowing the American Slang for different knots doesn't really add to my safety does it?
Anyway I ramble to much, you were not an asshole for not telling and I'm not an idiot for not doing the search IMHO.
Cheers
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robdotcalm
Apr 26, 2009, 1:14 PM
Post #52 of 101
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I_do wrote: Who's looking down on anyone? I told him/her to research it until they knew what it was. That's not looking down on someone, that's teaching self-sufficiency. People should take initiative and responsibility for their own knowledge level anyway. Even though I may be the "victim" in this case I kinda agree, I could have just done the search.
That's silly. You did do the research by asking a reasonable question in a beginner's forum. A snotty answer was not called for. Such answers should be reserved for threads such as those which discuss your favorite mind altering substance to be used while climbing.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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ja1484
Apr 26, 2009, 1:52 PM
Post #53 of 101
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robdotcalm wrote: I_do wrote: Who's looking down on anyone? I told him/her to research it until they knew what it was. That's not looking down on someone, that's teaching self-sufficiency. People should take initiative and responsibility for their own knowledge level anyway. Even though I may be the "victim" in this case I kinda agree, I could have just done the search. That's silly. You did do the research by asking a reasonable question in a beginner's forum. A snotty answer was not called for. Such answers should be reserved for threads such as those which discuss your favorite mind altering substance to be used while climbing. Cheers, Rob.calm
You consider getting a question answered here reasonable due diligence?
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moose_droppings
Apr 26, 2009, 2:35 PM
Post #54 of 101
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I_do wrote: As for the responsibility for my knowledge level, knowing the American Slang for different knots doesn't really add to my safety does it?
Which of those hitches is American slang?
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skiclimb
Apr 26, 2009, 3:30 PM
Post #55 of 101
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robdotcalm wrote: styndall wrote: I've never used a backup (except a few times when I decided to try it out to see whether I'd want to do it often). If I'm going to need to stop and hang out, I'll use a grigri. If you're doing a standard 2-rope rappel, how do you employ the GriGri as a backup? r.c
Good question and very useful peice of knowledge.
Wish I had a good diagram for this...where is Majit when you need him.
If using one rope.. run or clip the rope through the anchor .Tie a figure 8 in the rope next to the anchor. using a locking biner clip the F8 to the other strand.
Now one side of the rope can be pulled down but the other side will lockup at the anchor and not pull through.
Repell single strand on that side.
This can be done with 2 ropes tied together BUT you should do the system such that the tie-together knot is below the linking knot such that you pull the rope down on the tie together knot side..this leaves unequal length tails.
This can be handy when you anticipate a lot of stopping on repel for various reasons..cleaning a tough section ..photography ..whatever. A gri-gri is a lot nicer to work with for these purposes than various knots.
Problem!! this adds more snag potential when pulling the rope and adds complication to the repel since YOU MUST BE SURE which side to repel on ..A mistake will lead to a full length fall and death...Repelling is hazardous as we all know and adding complication means you must be even more sure to check out your repel thouroughly before committing to it.
Still usefull and I have used this many times.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Apr 26, 2009, 3:47 PM)
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styndall
Apr 26, 2009, 3:37 PM
Post #56 of 101
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robdotcalm wrote: styndall wrote: I've never used a backup (except a few times when I decided to try it out to see whether I'd want to do it often). If I'm going to need to stop and hang out, I'll use a grigri. If you're doing a standard 2-rope rappel, how do you employ the GriGri as a backup? r.c
The GriGri isn't a backup in that case, it's the rappel device. I run the rope through the rings, keeping the ends even like normal. Then I tie a figure eight on a bight on one side, then clip a locker through the loop that knot creates and over the other strand of rope. I rap on the strand without the knot, then use the other strand to pull the rope.
You can see the technique in this pdf:
http://www.petzl.com/...RIGRI%20D14601-I.pdf
on page 6, illustration 8.
(This post was edited by styndall on Apr 26, 2009, 3:38 PM)
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dingus
Apr 26, 2009, 3:51 PM
Post #57 of 101
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Autoblock is not a defined climbing term.
Its American SLANG.
Like cordelette and webolette and all the other bullshit nomenclature we feel compelled to dream up.
Google it till your fingers turn black... you can't get an official definition for slang, sorry.
"Belay" is a defined climbing term. Everyone knows what it means.
Autoblock is climbing slang. Like 'what's the beta bro?'
"Scum that edge and slap the sloper brah?"
DMT
DMT
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dingus
Apr 26, 2009, 3:53 PM
Post #58 of 101
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robdotcalm wrote: I_do wrote: Who's looking down on anyone? I told him/her to research it until they knew what it was. That's not looking down on someone, that's teaching self-sufficiency. People should take initiative and responsibility for their own knowledge level anyway. Even though I may be the "victim" in this case I kinda agree, I could have just done the search. That's silly. You did do the research by asking a reasonable question in a beginner's forum. A snotty answer was not called for. Such answers should be reserved for threads such as those which discuss your favorite mind altering substance to be used while climbing. Cheers, Rob.calm
I agree.
DMT
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dingus
Apr 26, 2009, 3:59 PM
Post #59 of 101
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When I back up a rap its above the rap device and usually attached to an adjustable daisy.
For fixed ropes a rope ascender is the most likely backup - unless its Petzl in which case I tend not to bother. Old yellow JUmar excellent for this.
Also use a simple rope clamp knot (I'm moody and therefore use differnent rope clamp knots by whim of the emperor... don't be seduced by knot!), maype a prusik, maybe a klemheist, whatever.
Most of the time I would not bother with a backup. I certainly didn't for yesterday's multirap.
Fixed ropes, walls, 'First Descents (in particular) when you don't know what's down there or what you'llhave to do to find an anchor???
That's when I really like a backup. Rapping El Cap with a pig is another one.... last time I did that I had no backup and that is a spincter puckering experience till you have 10 or 15 raps above you... (never been so happy to touch the ground in ALL MY LIFE haha)
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Apr 26, 2009, 4:01 PM)
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robdotcalm
Apr 26, 2009, 4:54 PM
Post #60 of 101
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There are lots of different ways to use a backup knot when rappelling. Here’s my opinion.
1. I do not like extending the rappel device using a sling attached to the belay loop. First, it adds an unnecessary link to the safety chain. More importantly, when rappelling past an overhang, the device can get stuck above the overhang while you’re below the overhang. That’s a bad news scenario. The same goes for having the backup knot above the belay device.
2. I prefer the auto-block knot as it’s easier to release than a Klemheist if the knot tightens up. Using these knots takes some practice until one gets the feel for just how many loops are needed, e.g., rappelling on a single line versus rappelling on two lines. Even though attaching the knots is very easy getting the sense of how to use them effectively, e.g., not having them tighten up frequently when you don’t want them to or pushing them up or down a bit, takes some practice.
3. Once you are adept at using them, the knots are a real convenience and time saver . The cord I use weighs a negligible 1 oz. (30 g.). At the rappel stance, I attach the auto-block to the rope. Then I pull up a foot or so of rope, which the auto-block knot holds in place. This floppy loop makes it easier to put the rope through the belay device, especially if it’s a hanging belay or it’s cold, wet etc. with the fingers numb. This far more than compensates the 15 extra seconds used in setting up the auto-belay. On rappel, it’s easier, quicker, and I would venture safer, to lock off using the auto-belay to clear jammed rope than wrapping the rappel rope around the thigh to free up both hands.
4. My personal experience a couple of years ago has led me to always use a backup knot, especially on easy rappels where you don’t think anything will go wrong (If it can happen, it will happen.) I was doing a one-pitch rappel, leaning back over a small overhang when a huge gust of wind blew me off the rock and I scuttled along upside down about 20 ft. Wearing a helmet and employing an auto-block, I was OK. This was the first time in 37 years of climbing than anything like that happened to me, but how many times do you have to die in 37 years to make a simple safety procedure worthwhile? ( blown off rock rappelling )
Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus
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xtrmecat
Apr 26, 2009, 5:29 PM
Post #61 of 101
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I always rap with a backup. My preference is to my right leg loop and above the device. Only took watching one fatal rap to convince me that it is needed.
Knots in the ends, or taking the rope down with me is also mandatory, same accident convinced me of this also. RIP Jackie.
Bob
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moose_droppings
Apr 26, 2009, 7:33 PM
Post #62 of 101
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dingus wrote: Autoblock is not a defined climbing term. Its American SLANG.
+1
I was waiting for someone to chime in with, 'a klemheist is slang for a french prusik', which would actually be reversed..
But I did have it google'd in reference to this;
"klemheist and autoblock are different".
Two fronts to that issue are explained by googleing it.
1. The first part of Wikipedia explains that an 'autoblock' is a technique that cavers and climbers use a hitch to backup a rappel. If it is a technique (which I agree with), then a klemheist (a hitch) is different than an autoblock (technique).
2. Using klemheist and autoblock in terms of a hitch. In that respect, a klemheist is the only way in which a loop is specifically tied to form a klemheist. In that respect, klemheist and autoblock are different since anything tied differently is not a klemheist. Calling it anything else in any other language or dialect, as some refer to, is nothing more than their term being used as a slang for klemheist.
As you pointed out though, you can google till your fingers turn black and you will not get an absolute answer for which hitch is being labeled as an autoblock. As stated earlier, most references refer to an autoblock as clipping a loop, then wrapping the loop around a line a few times, than clipping the other end. Again, this is just more often than not and is in no way an absolute.
Seems intuitive that since some use one type of hitch and others use another, and some above and some below the rap device, that it is a technique and not just a type of hitch. Maybe in time there will be enough of a consensus that in the future an autoblock will indeed be referenced to a technique. But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting on that.
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I_do
Apr 27, 2009, 12:10 AM
Post #63 of 101
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moose_droppings wrote: I_do wrote: As for the responsibility for my knowledge level, knowing the American Slang for different knots doesn't really add to my safety does it? Which of those hitches is American slang?
As detailed below the autoblock, all clear to you not to me. I'm dutch by the way so climbing in Aussie now has forced me to learn some new lingo and makes all english terms slang! Have not heard the term autoblock here yet but most people I climb with back up with a Prussic or Klemheist.
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robdotcalm
Apr 27, 2009, 9:33 PM
Post #64 of 101
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ja1484 wrote: robdotcalm wrote: I_do wrote: Who's looking down on anyone? I told him/her to research it until they knew what it was. That's not looking down on someone, that's teaching self-sufficiency. People should take initiative and responsibility for their own knowledge level anyway. Even though I may be the "victim" in this case I kinda agree, I could have just done the search. That's silly. You did do the research by asking a reasonable question in a beginner's forum. A snotty answer was not called for. Such answers should be reserved for threads such as those which discuss your favorite mind altering substance to be used while climbing. Cheers, Rob.calm You consider getting a question answered here reasonable due diligence?
If I answer it, "Yes". If you answer it, ....
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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chossmonkey
Apr 27, 2009, 9:47 PM
Post #65 of 101
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Becknology wrote: There are several methods of backing up a rappel. Auto-block, fireman's belay, even a Gri Gri can be considered a "back-up." Which do you use? Why? Do you use a back-up?
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wanderlustmd
Apr 27, 2009, 10:06 PM
Post #66 of 101
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I don't use a backup unless I don't know where the next station is. And even then, I only use one half the time or so.
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Becknology
Apr 27, 2009, 10:09 PM
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gimmeslack wrote: http://petzl.com/files/all/en/activities/sport/tech-tips-multi-pitch-climbing.pdf P.51
That's exactly the method I use. I love it. It's fast, safe, and efficient. Thanks for sharing this pdf!
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Myxomatosis
Apr 27, 2009, 11:33 PM
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Here I was thinking an autoblock was refering to a shunt the whole time 
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chossmonkey
Apr 28, 2009, 10:03 PM
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Becknology wrote: That's exactly the method I use. I love it. It's fast, safe, and efficient. Thanks for sharing this pdf! |
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skinner
Apr 28, 2009, 10:53 PM
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nope
- personal preference, I have no problems with anyone who does, and have given my fair share of (stealthy) fireman-belays to people who make me nervous, watching them white-knuckle & stumble their way down the rock.
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catbird_seat
Apr 29, 2009, 5:17 AM
Post #72 of 101
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It's always been my practice when climbing with beginners to rappel first and give them a fireman's belay. I've never had to save someone's bacon until last Sunday.
The guy was doing his first rappel and his foot slipped. He completely removed his hand from the brake strands. I saved him from rope burns at least and broken bones at worst.
After the novice has several rappels for practice, I'll send them down first, but with an autoblock. It eases their mind as well as mine.
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dave76
Jul 23, 2009, 1:54 AM
Post #73 of 101
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Hi all,
I just saw this thread.
robdotcalm wrote: 1. I do not like extending the rappel device using a sling attached to the belay loop. First, it adds an unnecessary link to the safety chain. More importantly, when rappelling past an overhang, the device can get stuck above the overhang while you’re below the overhang. That’s a bad news scenario. The same goes for having the backup knot above the belay device.
If you don't extend it, how do you connect it? backup on leg loop and descender on belay loop making sure backup doesn't get into the descender?
I've done an online search and it looks like connecting the autoblock to the leg loop is very common in the US.
On the other hand, I learned abseiling in Italy and have climbed a lot with Italian and French people and I've seen everybody extending the descending device and using an autoblock or kleimheist connected to the belay loop. This is actually the recommended way in the training book for Italian Alpine Guides, if I remember correctly (I don't have it handy). I am just curious if this technique is used at all in the US.
Davide
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knieveltech
Jul 23, 2009, 2:36 AM
Post #74 of 101
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dave76 wrote: Hi all, I just saw this thread. robdotcalm wrote: 1. I do not like extending the rappel device using a sling attached to the belay loop. First, it adds an unnecessary link to the safety chain. More importantly, when rappelling past an overhang, the device can get stuck above the overhang while you’re below the overhang. That’s a bad news scenario. The same goes for having the backup knot above the belay device. If you don't extend it, how do you connect it? backup on leg loop and descender on belay loop making sure backup doesn't get into the descender? I've done an online search and it looks like connecting the autoblock to the leg loop is very common in the US. On the other hand, I learned abseiling in Italy and have climbed a lot with Italian and French people and I've seen everybody extending the descending device and using an autoblock or kleimheist connected to the belay loop. This is actually the recommended way in the training book for Italian Alpine Guides, if I remember correctly (I don't have it handy). I am just curious if this technique is used at all in the US. Davide
You occassionally run into people that use the system you're describing. I've seen it a few times at the crag. Typically people just clip an autoblock or prussic to a leg loop.
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rgold
Jul 23, 2009, 4:47 AM
Post #75 of 101
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Personally, I've been blown around and have slipped and pendulumed and never came even close to releasing my brake hand, so I am positive the only thing that could cause me to let go would be unconsciousness.
But that poses a problem: an unconscious person held in mid-rappel by a rappel backup is in serious danger from suspension trauma and in any case constitutes an enormous complex rescue problem for the rest of the team. For this reason, I think rappel backups should only be used for the first person down---and even then there are usually better options, like being lowered or rappelling single-strand with an upper belay from the other strand.
The fireman's belay can be given to everyone after the first person and is much safer for all concerned. In particular, an unconscious rappeller can be immediately guided to the base of the rappel rather than becoming a half-day rescue project with likely poor outcome.
If the blocking knot, whatever is used, is placed on the leg loop, then some extension of the device is necessary. Otherwise, raising the leg with the blocking knot will move the blocking knot up to the rap device and release the knot.
Several careful tests by cavers have made it clear that a knot placed above the rappel device and controlled by the non-braking hand will not work if the braking hand fails for some reason. Rappellers, even in a test situation when they knew what was coming, would not release the non-brake hand and so the blocking knot never engaged. So ironically, a knot above the device will only save you if you are rendered unconscious and so release it, thereby immediately causing a major problem---the unconscious rappeller pinned to the rap lines.
Although the below-device configuration recommended by Petzl was not tested by the cavers, it has the same fatal property as the above-device placement, which is that the knot is controlled by the non-braking hand. A conscious but falling rappeller is not going to release this knot and so it will be ineffective.
So it seems to me that the safest method is the blocking knot on the legloop with rap device extended, but my final conclusion is that the benefits of rappel backups are over-stated, while the potential dangers seem to be generally ignored. Given that there are simple strategies for avoiding the use of backups in all cases, their increasing popularity makes no sense to me.
By the way, assuming that equipping a beginner with a rappel backup makes them safe is a serious mistake in my opinion. Once engaged for whatever reason, a beginner might inappropriately disengage the backup, causing a fall. (These knots will not necessarily grab once a person is moving fast.) Beginners either need to be belayed or protected with a fireman's belay.
I do not, however, think rappel backups are completely without merit, since there are special circumstances in which one might worry about losing control of the rappel without losing consciousness. The ones that come to mind all involve situations in which there is inadequate friction from the belay device, such as rappels with heavy loads (human or porcine), and rappels on single or double lines that are too thin for the device.
I've posted all this before. Most people disagree with me.
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