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builttospill


May 5, 2009, 9:14 AM
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What anchor setups are folks partial to?
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Reading the recent discussion of the double figure-8 anchor over on the "trad" board got me thinking about anchors for the first time in a couple years. I don't do a lot of hard climbing (read: none). Almost all of my climbing is in the mountains, or easy stuff at the crag because I suck and/or am lazy.

For two piece anchors, I almost always default to a sliding x configuration, usually without stopper knots. Quick, easy, etc. Clip in with a figure 8 on a bight/bite (whatever), belay directly off the harness if there's a ledge/big stance or from harness through an anchor redirect if there's not. Depends a bit though. Don't usually use an autoblock.

For three pieces, I usually do a sliding x on the two closest together, with a second fig 8 on a bight on the third, backup piece. I will occasionally fashion a cordelette, but rarely these days.

I've used the double fig. 8 as well, but my hands just seem to naturally do the sliding x, without thinking too much about it.

Some recent reading I've done argues against the sliding x in principle, which has invited me to think further about my anchor systems. I still like it for quick alpine anchors, but want to think a bit more about other options.

My question is.....what are other people using in the mountains? I know a partner I occasionally climb with uses cloves on every piece, without equalization. Not my thing, but I don't have a problem with it. He values the adjustability.

Anything else out there that people use relatively regularly (not oddball, once-upon-a-time stuff)?


divnamite


May 5, 2009, 12:53 PM
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Re: [builttospill] What anchor setups are folks partial to? [In reply to]
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First thing first. How bombers are you pros? If your gear are bomber, then it doesn't matter what "reasonable" configurations you use. I normally use a tree for anchor. If I use pros, then I almost always use three pieces, then cordelette them together with a figure 8 on a bight for power point. I belay directly off the anchor.


cfnubbler


May 5, 2009, 1:09 PM
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Re: [builttospill] What anchor setups are folks partial to? [In reply to]
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If all I get, or feel I need, is a 2-piece anchor (typically blocky alpine terrain where a high force fall is unlikely and speed is more of a consideration), I'll typically go with a sliding x on a beefy nylon sling. I'm not comfortable with one of the dental-floss style skinny slings for this application, though I love them for clipping pro.

That said, when relying on 2-piece anchors, I NEVER redirect. Why double the potential force placed on a 2-piece anchor? In such cases, I'm belaying off my harness, or on truly easy terrain where I expect my 2nd to move quickly, using a hip belay. My aim in such situations is to absord as much potential force as I can with my body and sound position, with the anchor merely a back-up.

In fact, I essentially never redirect. I'm hard pressed to think of any situation in which there is not a clearly better choice.


(This post was edited by cfnubbler on May 5, 2009, 1:15 PM)


GeneralZon


May 5, 2009, 3:53 PM
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builttospill wrote:
I know a partner I occasionally climb with uses cloves on every piece, without equalization. Not my thing, but I don't have a problem with it. He values the adjustability.

Without equalization, for real? That really doesn't fit the SRENE criteria. What are they using to fashion the anchor then, cordelette, equalette, slings, other?


marde


May 5, 2009, 8:53 PM
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in general:
switching leads I use the rope with clove hitches
leading in blocks I use a sling with clove hitches

You can use clove hitches with equalization that is almost as good as a sliding x.


creemore


May 5, 2009, 9:13 PM
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Re: [builttospill] What anchor setups are folks partial to? [In reply to]
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One fast technique i've used for years on two solid pieces is a doubled-up clove hitch as the master point. Easy to equalize, non-extending, timely and all that other stuff. It works with all materials (cord, 1"tub, skinny slings). It actually made it into the technique portion of Petzl's catalog this year too!

For 3 points, I use either an overhand in the legs or a clove hitch on the piece of a really long leg. Always adding a twist in the master point.

Belaying on or off the anchor depends on the stance as you stated. Rarely directly off the harness, only if the anchor is not cool or just body brace belays while short roping.


skinnyclimber


May 5, 2009, 9:15 PM
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Re: [builttospill] What anchor setups are folks partial to? [In reply to]
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My group almost always uses a webolette although I used to use a cordelette before. Its fast, convenient and light.

Not saying it's the best choice for everyone, but it's what we use.


graniteboy


May 5, 2009, 11:27 PM
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Re: [builttospill] What anchor setups are folks partial to? [In reply to]
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The question you ask is a good one.
And some of the answers above I agree with.

Basically, in alpinism, it's a good idea to remember that speed is often safety. So dicking around with a complex anchor setup is often off of the table. Also, think like this: there is never a single method that will work in all situations.

Given those constraints, I often still use a magic X, or a simple cordellette setup. Occasionally, I use clove hitches, or, if my anchor pieces are bombproof and the climbing is low angle i might even (GASP!!!!) just clip into the anchor points without any regard to equalizing anything.

The point here is that on alpine routes, you often have 20, 30, or 50 pitches you might be doing in a day. Add an extra 2 minutes to each belay screwing around with your all new nuclear weborama patented guaranteeeed one size fits all anchor system, and you're gonna be climbing at midnight....tired as hell, unable to see, and "Whoops.....I just dropped the Rack"....."You dropped the WHAT?????"..."I dropped the rack". Silence, and the howling of an incoming storm that will now kill you as surely as Paris Hilton is a dumb blonde.....

You get the point. Speed is safety. If you're not up to doing whatever route it is you've chosen to do in a quick and efficient manner, without being a dumbass and taking force factor 2 falls, then maybe you should be on an easier, shorter route till you get your game on. This takes some time.....maybe decades...to figure out and get put together.


builttospill


May 6, 2009, 5:06 AM
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Re: [GeneralZon] What anchor setups are folks partial to? [In reply to]
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GeneralZon wrote:
builttospill wrote:
I know a partner I occasionally climb with uses cloves on every piece, without equalization. Not my thing, but I don't have a problem with it. He values the adjustability.

Without equalization, for real? That really doesn't fit the SRENE criteria. What are they using to fashion the anchor then, cordelette, equalette, slings, other?

I actually shouldn't say that. He uses a lot of different systems...he's been climbing a LONG time (30+ years now I guess). But when using cloves, it is always with the rope, tying himself off and belaying directly from the harness. Other than that, it depends.

As for my own anchors, I am also a "off the harness, usually" kind of guy.....I figure it will almost always make the anchor a bit more secure, and it gives me an easier time of rope handling. Almost all of my climbing is on terrain easy enough that there are at least small ledges, so this makes it easiest.

Trees are nice, but I'll use two pieces of gear on easier terrain. I climb mostly in the Tetons, so that may affect my outlook a bit....the gear tends to be solid. I have, as everyone has I'm sure, constructed some rat's nest 5+ piece anchors, though. I'm partial to big blocks/horns and trees if I can find them of course.

Any other ideas I should be considering beyond the default sliding x?


irregularpanda


May 6, 2009, 5:49 AM
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divnamite wrote:
First thing first. How bombers are you pros? If your gear are bomber, then it doesn't matter what "reasonable" configurations you use. I normally use a tree for anchor. If I use pros, then I almost always use three pieces, then cordelette them together with a figure 8 on a bight for power point. I belay directly off the anchor.

You sir, get 5 stars for your poor grammar, and improper use of pluralization.

No, I'm not joking.


(This post was edited by irregularpanda on May 6, 2009, 5:59 AM)


irregularpanda


May 6, 2009, 5:58 AM
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builttospill wrote:

Any other ideas I should be considering beyond the default sliding x?

Yes and no.

Oh god how it depends. On so many things.
Do you trust all your pieces? Are they all part of one crack system, or do various crack systems converge (through the medium of slings and pieces) into a common point? What are the Angles like? Small or large angles?

Somebody who just uses cloves can be very safe, or very dangerous, depending on the degree of complacency and HOW they equalize their pieces.
The same can be said for me, who usually uses a sliding X, whether a bolted belay or a (more than 2 pieces) trad belay. Here's what I do: I usually use a sliding X, and depending on the angle, # of pieces, directionality of climber, whether I need a directional, whether I need extra pieces, whether I want more security, whether I want some cloves, whether I want less security.....etce etce etc etc......

In that Case, I use some sort of combination of the sliding X...coupled with another....smaller sliding x or cloved-off 2-3 piece....thingamajig.
Do I trust the equallette? Yes...when it's a very straight pitch that has very little traversing moves (especially towards the top).

But still, I use the sliding X more often, and many time I use the sliding X with other mini-slidin-x's contained within....to help de-marginalize the other pieces. Remember, your best tool is your judgment. ANd also remember- it's not safe to drunk-type.


moose_droppings


May 6, 2009, 6:47 AM
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builttospill wrote:
Reading the recent discussion of the double figure-8 anchor over on the "trad" board got me thinking about anchors for the first time in a couple years. I don't do a lot of hard climbing (read: none). Almost all of my climbing is in the mountains, or easy stuff at the crag because I suck and/or am lazy.

For two piece anchors, I almost always default to a sliding x configuration, usually without stopper knots. Quick, easy, etc. Clip in with a figure 8 on a bight/bite (whatever), belay directly off the harness if there's a ledge/big stance or from harness through an anchor redirect if there's not. Depends a bit though. Don't usually use an autoblock.

For three pieces, I usually do a sliding x on the two closest together, with a second fig 8 on a bight on the third, backup piece. I will occasionally fashion a cordelette, but rarely these days.

I've used the double fig. 8 as well, but my hands just seem to naturally do the sliding x, without thinking too much about it.

Some recent reading I've done argues against the sliding x in principle, which has invited me to think further about my anchor systems. I still like it for quick alpine anchors, but want to think a bit more about other options.

My question is.....what are other people using in the mountains? I know a partner I occasionally climb with uses cloves on every piece, without equalization. Not my thing, but I don't have a problem with it. He values the adjustability.

Anything else out there that people use relatively regularly (not oddball, once-upon-a-time stuff)?

Really it depends on what the rock has to offer and what I have left to work with it.

Don't get stuck using the same type setup to much. Like they say, if you carry a hammer everything looks like a nail.


jt512


May 6, 2009, 6:57 AM
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creemore wrote:
One fast technique i've used for years on two solid pieces is a doubled-up clove hitch as the master point. Easy to equalize, non-extending, timely and all that other stuff. It works with all materials (cord, 1"tub, skinny slings). It actually made it into the technique portion of Petzl's catalog this year too!

For 3 points, I use either an overhand in the legs or a clove hitch on the piece of a really long leg. Always adding a twist in the master point.

I get the feeling that you have something valuable to offer, but without greater elaboration or pictures, your post is completely incomprehensible.

Jay


dingus


May 6, 2009, 10:22 AM
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Cool! Another anchor wank. I wanna play!

Up in the mountains as opposed to technical rock climbing on crags and walls?

I detest rote anchor configs. My anchor will be suited for the task at hand. I AM comfortable with in-series knots at times, plenty comfortable. Other times I will seek equalization (but rarely, frankly I think it is another one of these fad things and until I see an exhaustive test of various anchor configs you'll not be shaking me from this stance)

Sometimes I'll toss a sling over a block and call it good.

Times enough no anchor at all.

Mountaineering isn't like some text book Sunday morning at the local Guide Crag. Its not a digital experience its analog.

As such, GOOD ENOUGH is often BEST.

DMT


Guran


May 6, 2009, 12:30 PM
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dingus wrote:

As such, GOOD ENOUGH is often BEST.

Amen!

You want
Good Enough Now.

Not
Optimal Solution Soon.


reno


May 6, 2009, 12:36 PM
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dingus wrote:
My anchor will be suited for the task at hand.

Best answer in an anchor thread yet. Well said, DMT.


colatownkid


May 6, 2009, 1:40 PM
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jt512 wrote:
creemore wrote:
One fast technique i've used for years on two solid pieces is a doubled-up clove hitch as the master point. Easy to equalize, non-extending, timely and all that other stuff. It works with all materials (cord, 1"tub, skinny slings). It actually made it into the technique portion of Petzl's catalog this year too!

For 3 points, I use either an overhand in the legs or a clove hitch on the piece of a really long leg. Always adding a twist in the master point.

I get the feeling that you have something valuable to offer, but without greater elaboration or pictures, your post is completely incomprehensible.

Jay

Not sure if this is exactly what creemore was talking about...

Place two pieces. Clove hitch your end of the rope to the first piece. Then clove hitch the second piece behind that. This is the unequalized, inline clove hitches that totally freaks out some, and others are totally comfortable with.

From this setup, adjust the clove hitches so there is an ample supply of slack between the two hitches (instead of adjusting them to have tension between them).

Clip a biner to this slack and call it a masterpoint.

If you prefer a bit more redundancy, tie your favorite knot (overhand, fig-8, BHK, etc.) in the middle of this slack, clip a biner to it, and call that the masterpoint.

If you would like to be tethered to more than one piece of the anchor, use the backside of the rope (the second's side) and clove hitch it to your belay loop. Alternately, use a 2 or 4 foot sling girth hitched you your harness and clipped to the second piece.




(This post was edited by colatownkid on May 6, 2009, 1:41 PM)
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Guran


May 6, 2009, 2:23 PM
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colatownkid wrote:
...
From this setup, adjust the clove hitches so there is an ample supply of slack between the two hitches (instead of adjusting them to have tension between them).

Clip a biner to this slack and call it a masterpoint.

If you prefer a bit more redundancy, tie your favorite knot (overhand, fig-8, BHK, etc.) in the middle of this slack, clip a biner to it, and call that the masterpoint.

"a bit more redundancy"? Are you trolling?
Clipping directly to the slack is even worse than a one piece anchor, since that would fail if any piece blows.

Clove-clove-fig8-biner-done is a quick setup I'm totally calm with as long as both pieces are reasonably bomber.


colatownkid


May 6, 2009, 2:43 PM
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Guran wrote:
colatownkid wrote:
...
From this setup, adjust the clove hitches so there is an ample supply of slack between the two hitches (instead of adjusting them to have tension between them).

Clip a biner to this slack and call it a masterpoint.

If you prefer a bit more redundancy, tie your favorite knot (overhand, fig-8, BHK, etc.) in the middle of this slack, clip a biner to it, and call that the masterpoint.

"a bit more redundancy"? Are you trolling?
Clipping directly to the slack is even worse than a one piece anchor, since that would fail if any piece blows.

Clove-clove-fig8-biner-done is a quick setup I'm totally calm with as long as both pieces are reasonably bomber.

sorry. i tend to be a bit sarcastic at times, and that seems to have been lost in translation. i have heard the justification, "if you trust the rope by itself, why do you need to add redundancy to it? you don't need a knot" and similar sentiments. as you clearly understand, this is a bad idea.

when i said "if you prefer a bit more redundancy..." i pretty much meant "if you actually intend to use this setup, ever, you should tie a knot in there to make it redundant."

i'll make sure i watch my word choice more closely next time around.Wink


builttospill


May 6, 2009, 7:36 PM
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dingus wrote:
Cool! Another anchor wank. I wanna play!

But Dingus, this is so clearly different from every other anchor wank.....because its specific to alpine stuff. Wink

I'm generally on the same page as Dingus, in that I will use what is available and it depends a lot on the steepness of terrain, the difficulty of the climbing, and who I am climbing with. I would certainly use a different anchor with someone who is a weak climber seconding than I would with my main partner (who can solo the stuff I lead).....the potential of the second falling and having to either jug or be rescued naturally alters my decision-making.

A sling on a block is a good one. Better is a slung chockstone to protect moves on lead. Even more interesting is straddling the block and becoming the anchor yourself.


Guran


May 6, 2009, 9:03 PM
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colatownkid wrote:

i'll make sure i watch my word choice more closely next time around.Wink

Hehe, no problem. Couldn't really figure out if you were serious or not. Just to make sure, do you really have a problem with two cloves and a fig 8 on the rope, assuming that the pieces are something like ice screws or bolts? Swapping leads on ice, thats probably my first hand solution.


colatownkid


May 7, 2009, 12:06 AM
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Guran wrote:
colatownkid wrote:

i'll make sure i watch my word choice more closely next time around.Wink

Hehe, no problem. Couldn't really figure out if you were serious or not. Just to make sure, do you really have a problem with two cloves and a fig 8 on the rope, assuming that the pieces are something like ice screws or bolts? Swapping leads on ice, thats probably my first hand solution.

i don't really have a problem with inline clove hitches, especially on easier terrain. if the pieces are bomber then i'm not super concerned. the only reason i actually posted anything was to attempt to clarify the setup that jt512 was asking about. i think both inline cloves and the setup i drew up are fine in the right situations.

as with everything in climbing, it's all situational.


Guran


May 7, 2009, 7:52 AM
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colatownkid wrote:
i don't really have a problem with inline clove hitches, especially on easier terrain. if the pieces are bomber then i'm not super concerned. the only reason i actually posted anything was to attempt to clarify the setup that jt512 was asking about. i think both inline cloves and the setup i drew up are fine in the right situations.

as with everything in climbing, it's all situational.

Ok, I'm with you.
One reason I like cloves on the rope is that if the first piece of my ancor is solid enough, I'm safe once I've tied that first clove. Than I can worry about the anchor and my second, not my own survival.

With a cordalette, Y-sling, sliding x or whatever it's always a bit more rigging before I can secure myself to something.

But as you wrote, it's all situational.


rtwilli4


May 7, 2009, 8:38 AM
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colatownkid wrote:
jt512 wrote:
creemore wrote:
One fast technique i've used for years on two solid pieces is a doubled-up clove hitch as the master point. Easy to equalize, non-extending, timely and all that other stuff. It works with all materials (cord, 1"tub, skinny slings). It actually made it into the technique portion of Petzl's catalog this year too!

For 3 points, I use either an overhand in the legs or a clove hitch on the piece of a really long leg. Always adding a twist in the master point.

I get the feeling that you have something valuable to offer, but without greater elaboration or pictures, your post is completely incomprehensible.

Jay

Not sure if this is exactly what creemore was talking about...

Place two pieces. Clove hitch your end of the rope to the first piece. Then clove hitch the second piece behind that. This is the unequalized, inline clove hitches that totally freaks out some, and others are totally comfortable with.

From this setup, adjust the clove hitches so there is an ample supply of slack between the two hitches (instead of adjusting them to have tension between them).

Clip a biner to this slack and call it a masterpoint.

If you prefer a bit more redundancy, tie your favorite knot (overhand, fig-8, BHK, etc.) in the middle of this slack, clip a biner to it, and call that the masterpoint.

If you would like to be tethered to more than one piece of the anchor, use the backside of the rope (the second's side) and clove hitch it to your belay loop. Alternately, use a 2 or 4 foot sling girth hitched you your harness and clipped to the second piece.

[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3550;[/image]

He puts a third clove hitch where you have "your favorite knot". It's fast and easy to equalize and untie and takes up virtually no rope/webbing. it's even faster on bolts... which is why it made it into the Petzl Mag. They were doing a piece on Verdon.

Clip draws or lockers to two bolts, put a long sling between them, and clove hitch a locker to the middle of the sling.


colatownkid


May 7, 2009, 11:46 AM
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Re: [rtwilli4] What anchor setups are folks partial to? [In reply to]
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rtwilli4 wrote:
colatownkid wrote:
jt512 wrote:
creemore wrote:
One fast technique i've used for years on two solid pieces is a doubled-up clove hitch as the master point. Easy to equalize, non-extending, timely and all that other stuff. It works with all materials (cord, 1"tub, skinny slings). It actually made it into the technique portion of Petzl's catalog this year too!

For 3 points, I use either an overhand in the legs or a clove hitch on the piece of a really long leg. Always adding a twist in the master point.

I get the feeling that you have something valuable to offer, but without greater elaboration or pictures, your post is completely incomprehensible.

Jay

Not sure if this is exactly what creemore was talking about...

Place two pieces. Clove hitch your end of the rope to the first piece. Then clove hitch the second piece behind that. This is the unequalized, inline clove hitches that totally freaks out some, and others are totally comfortable with.

From this setup, adjust the clove hitches so there is an ample supply of slack between the two hitches (instead of adjusting them to have tension between them).

Clip a biner to this slack and call it a masterpoint.

If you prefer a bit more redundancy, tie your favorite knot (overhand, fig-8, BHK, etc.) in the middle of this slack, clip a biner to it, and call that the masterpoint.

If you would like to be tethered to more than one piece of the anchor, use the backside of the rope (the second's side) and clove hitch it to your belay loop. Alternately, use a 2 or 4 foot sling girth hitched you your harness and clipped to the second piece.

[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=3550;[/image]

He puts a third clove hitch where you have "your favorite knot". It's fast and easy to equalize and untie and takes up virtually no rope/webbing. it's even faster on bolts... which is why it made it into the Petzl Mag. They were doing a piece on Verdon.

Clip draws or lockers to two bolts, put a long sling between them, and clove hitch a locker to the middle of the sling.

gotcha. that's pretty nifty, and super fast. i like it.

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