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shoo
May 29, 2009, 3:30 PM
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When buying gear from a shop, make sure the person who is giving you advice actually knows what they are talking about.
I work nights at a climbing gym with a small retail area. I'm pretty disgusted with the number of people I see with incredibly inappropriate gear sold to them by certain retail stores with three letter abbreviations. I've seen pretty much everything: shoes that didn't in any way shape or form fit, harnesses not designed for rock climbing, a dude who brought in a half rope to use as a single, and so on. And that's just at the gym. Seriously. It's ridiculous.
Below are my tips for responsibly buying climbing gear.
Know what you are doing before entering the store
This is by far the best way to protect yourself. Do your research. If it's your first time buying a harness find some information out about what features you would want or need in a harness. Look around at specific models. If you're looking for advice online, remember that this is the internet. What forums and sources are good and bad is another subject.
This makes you far less reliant on the sales staff. The broader your base of knowledge, the better. This also makes it far easier to spot the fakes.
Avoid general outdoors stores where possible, buy at climbing-specific shops
You are taking a risk when taking advice from those general outdoors stores. The staff at most of these places aren't usually experienced climbers. At most places, there might be one or two people who have reasonable experience. This may or may not be the person who is helping you (probably not).
Staff at climbing specific shops are more likely to know what they are talking about. However, you need to be very careful even here.
Get to know the sales person
Start up a friendly conversation. Get some background info. Ask the dude if he / she climbs. If so, what kind, for how long, and where. If you don't like the answers you are getting, kindly ask if there is anyone else in the shop who has more experience. Make sure you do the same with the new sales staff as well.
And now for the fun part. . .
Spot the fake
This is harder to do. A person can tell you he has all the experience in the world, and it can all be crap. Here are a few things you can try:
1) Ask the person whether or not they carry some obscure piece of climbing equipment, something only someone who has been climbing a while would have ever even heard of. A good one is a fifi hook (look it up). Tricams (look them up) work pretty well too, though less obscure. If you ask them to see a tricam, and they show you some active cam, you know have a fake.
2) Ask the person what the best shoe / harness / rope is. If they give you a specific model, they probably are a fake. The answer should be "it depends," followed by a lengthy explanation.
3) Ask the person about how to use different climbing techniques. If the person uses a lot of absolutes, such as "you must always do this" or "never do that," they probably don't have a healthy amount of experience. There are very few absolutes in climbing.
Anyone have any other tips?
(This post was edited by shoo on May 29, 2009, 4:01 PM)
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Gmburns2000
May 29, 2009, 3:53 PM
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I usually just spray the store with unqualified-sales-staff dust and turn on my lazer scanner. Anyone who comes up green doesn't know what they're talking about.
I can't get the scanner to stopping beaping at hot chicks, though. It usually scares them away. 
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Gmburns2000
May 29, 2009, 3:53 PM
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Otherwise, not a bad writeup.
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zchandran
May 29, 2009, 3:55 PM
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REI staff have been great for me, at least here in St. Louis. Usually if you ask for help in the climbing section, they'll call for someone who climbs. A couple of times they've told me I should really come back between X and Y times when such and such would be working. Don't know how their stores are in other parts.
I don't know if asking about aid or trad pro is necessarily the best strategy. I know what those are, and I'm most definitely a newb just wrapping up my first year of climbing. Anyone can get the book knowledge from browsing the forums and sound like they know what they're doing. I think when all is said and done, "Do your research" is the best possible advice. Just asking the sales person how long they've climbed and in which areas is probably the most direct and effective approach.
I've also noticed a reluctance from sales staff to spend half an hour explaining how shoes differ to someone they've never seen before. That's because a LOT of people come in to the local REI, pick the brains of the sales staff for an hour, write down all the model numbers, and order it off the Internet within half an hour of getting home. It's what put a lot of the local stereo stores out of business.
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bill413
May 29, 2009, 3:57 PM
Post #6 of 62
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shoo wrote: When buying gear from a shop, make sure the person who is giving you advice actually knows what they are talking about.
Listen to their explanation of how a piece of gear works. See if it jibes with what you know.
Ask about shoe sizing - if they are of the "tighter to the point of pain" school, they are a fake. If you legitimately use a shoe that tight you don't really need the salesperson's advice.
Ask them about a nearby climbing area, and how it compares with a more remote one.
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shoo
May 29, 2009, 4:14 PM
Post #7 of 62
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Otherwise, not a bad writeup.
Figured I had to make up for my last miserable failure of a rant thread.
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iron106
May 29, 2009, 4:17 PM
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Also do not rely on your buddy who "just got in to climbing and "knows a lot"". They sometimes are as useful as your sales staff who sells you a key chain for climbing.
If there are no useful staff around look in one of their books at the store or ask when someone who climbs will be in.
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the_climber
May 29, 2009, 4:23 PM
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shoo wrote: 1) Ask the person whether or not they carry some obscure piece of climbing equipment, something only someone who has been climbing a while would have ever even heard of. A good one is a fifi hook (look it up). Tricams (look them up) work pretty well too, though less obscure. If you ask them to see a tricam, and they show you some active cam, you know have a fake.
While this is a good line of thought, fifi's and tricams are hardly obscure. Not in use by all climbers sure, but hardle obscure.
There are times at certain shops where I have pulled people aside after the sales person ran into the back to pick out some shoes/ropes/harnesses/... for someone to tell them how bunk the advise was. The trend of unqualified staff is something that is spreading like wild fire.
Now I've also had the opposite happen, staff seeing me and asking if I could field a responce to someone's question as I knew more on that topic than they did. I think it's alright for employees to have a lesser level of experiance so long as they do not miss-represent themselves.
Types of tips I give people about the gearshop tool should they susspect they are dealing with a real tool:
-Ask the guy/girl what tyle of climbing is their main focus. Ask what routes they have been on.
-If you've been on some of of the routes quiz them
-When asking about shoes ask questions like "what shoe fit a wide/narrow foot", is best for all day routes, alpine rock...
-If your looking for trad gear and the guy only boulders or climbs in the gym... ask someone else. Same with ice or alpine gear.
-...
I could go on and on...
Here the thing, for some reason most people assume that because they are working in a shop they are an expert. Same thing can be said about those who just started and got up that blue taped 5.10 a the gym...
edit to add: Be specific with your questions.
(This post was edited by the_climber on May 29, 2009, 4:27 PM)
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jakedatc
May 29, 2009, 4:29 PM
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just to let you know. EMS staff is not allowed to give technical instruction for climbing gear. ie you say "hey can you show me how this gri gri works?" they should not tell you and should direct you to the manual. liability issue. when you fuck up and say "the ems guy taught me..." nope they didn't
Ever think that those people just went in there and bought the stuff and didn't ask for help? i see lots of rants on here about wanting staff to leave them alone so which do you want?
Folks also like to *KNOW* what they want and refuse advice other wise. We had a guy come in asking for an 11mm lead rope because he weighed like 200lbs .. we're like dude that's heavy and overkill.. but that's what he wanted.. so he left without a rope since well. we didn't carry 11mm dynamic ropes haha
i'm not sure what harnesses you can get at REI or EMS that aren't for climbing.. I don't think either carry sailing harnesses
The problem with both stores is that they try to cover many areas with one person. The guy may not know about climbing stuff as much but he might kick ass at backpacks but he has no choice in the matter and gets stuck covering camping, climbing, bikes, canoes. At my ems we'd have a manager and 2 staff most days. I was the climbing guy but when it came down to technical questions about the kayaks i did the best i could until i could get the manager to help out.
Folks who rag on the EMS and REI staff should try it sometime. $9/hour is not very attractive to folks with a lot of experience. especially since at least one weekend day is usually required.
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shoo
May 29, 2009, 4:31 PM
Post #11 of 62
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the_climber wrote: While this is a good line of thought, fifi's and tricams are hardly obscure. Not in use by all climbers sure, but hardle obscure.
Perhaps obscure was the wrong word?
Tricams certainly aren't obscure, especially here in the northeast. However, they are a piece of gear that is easily mistaken for another for people who don't really know all that much.
As for fifi hooks, I'm going to go ahead and keep that in the obscure category, at least where I've from. The only reasonable two ways a person would have heard of a fifi hook is either in aid climbing (suggesting a certain level of experience), or having read about it in a climbing manual (slightly less suggestive of experience, but still a little).
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angry
May 29, 2009, 4:35 PM
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They know how to work the cash register right?
I don't need advice.
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edge
May 29, 2009, 4:43 PM
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I want to shop where Grover shops...
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blueeyedclimber
May 29, 2009, 4:46 PM
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angry wrote: They know how to work the cash register right? I don't need advice.
I usually just go in and ask "what gear does angry buy?" Then I buy that and walk out. It's worked for me so far 
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bill413
May 29, 2009, 4:53 PM
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the_climber wrote: I think it's alright for employees to have a lesser level of experiance so long as they do not miss-represent themselves.
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angry
May 29, 2009, 4:59 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: angry wrote: They know how to work the cash register right? I don't need advice. I usually just go in and ask "what gear does angry buy?" Then I buy that and walk out. It's worked for me so far
I already know what I want when I go there. I'm sure you do to. Most of our "shopping" is fondling gear that we want to see but know we don't want to buy.
The exception for me is for cold weather clothing but they have like 15 product seminars on that stuff every year so they have always been really informed on that from what I've seen.
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dingus
May 29, 2009, 5:13 PM
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angry wrote: They know how to work the cash register right?
I wouldn't count in it!
DMT
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blueeyedclimber
May 29, 2009, 5:21 PM
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angry wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: angry wrote: They know how to work the cash register right? I don't need advice. I usually just go in and ask "what gear does angry buy?" Then I buy that and walk out. It's worked for me so far I already know what I want when I go there. I'm sure you do to. Most of our "shopping" is fondling gear that we want to see but know we don't want to buy. The exception for me is for cold weather clothing but they have like 15 product seminars on that stuff every year so they have always been really informed on that from what I've seen.
I agree. I don't remember the last time I actually asked for help in the climbing department. In the clothing or bike sections I might ask a few questions though, mostly because I don't ride my bike very often so I am not as knowledgeable. Oh, I am usually naked. 
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theguy
May 29, 2009, 5:33 PM
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shoo wrote: If the person uses a lot of absolutes, such as "you must always do this" or "never do that," they probably are on rc.com
Fixed that for you
jakedatc wrote: i'm not sure what harnesses you can get at REI or EMS that aren't for climbing
REI canyoneering harness
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jakedatc
May 29, 2009, 5:37 PM
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ahh.. good catch. But if someone actually got that for climbing and thought it would be ok for climbing... then they are not smart enough to climb.
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swoopee
May 29, 2009, 5:48 PM
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Walk into any REI store and there they are. 
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happiegrrrl
May 29, 2009, 6:43 PM
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I made my first trip to Yosemite last fall, and flew in to San Francisco. I MapQuested the route to Yosemite.
but it seemed pretty convoluted. I got lost driving around San Fran but finally stumbled upon an REI. Great, since I needed propane for my stove.
Thinking they'd probably be able to look at my directions and tell me if they made sense(it was a route through country roads, which I did end up taking and despite a few errors from MQ, got there. Quite a nice drive).
It took FOUR people, working in an outdoor store, before one could even point me to someone else who had even ever been to Yosemite....
They were SURE he would know, since he, like, goes there every week......
Well...... No. The guy glanced at my notes and was like....Ummm....yeahhhhh. I think that will work."
So I said "Ok - but the crux is getting to this first street, that exits San Francisco. Can you tell me how to get to (insert whatever it was).
He could not.
It ended up being.....3 blocks away, down the very same street REI was on.
Now I KNOW this isn't outdoor gear-related. But for cryin out loud!
I bet if I'd asked where the nearest 3 Starbucks were they all would have been able to say.
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msiddens
May 29, 2009, 6:57 PM
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HA, Swoopee beat me to it! Walk into any REI and BAM!
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swoopee
May 29, 2009, 7:10 PM
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Admittedly, that is a gross overgeneralization. Even REI has a few truly outstanding salespeople.
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