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knieveltech


Jul 26, 2009, 7:59 PM
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First fall on gear
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As a side effect of my herculean efforts to turn a 5.7 face climb into a 5.9 crack climb this weekend I finally pitched onto a piece of gear. Well, three pieces and the anchor to be exact (what a shit show Crazy). Nice to know all the this shiny stuff I've been spending money on actually works!


jdwynn


Jul 26, 2009, 8:28 PM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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Nice but did you fall on a belay anchor? I was always told your not a trad climber till you fall on your gear.


Factor2


Jul 26, 2009, 8:35 PM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
Well, three pieces and the anchor to be exact

Simulateneously? pieces ripped? enlighten the confused CrazyTongue

It certainly is a nice feeling when everything does what its supposed to


knieveltech


Jul 26, 2009, 8:49 PM
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Re: [Factor2] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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Factor2 wrote:
knieveltech wrote:
Well, three pieces and the anchor to be exact

Simulateneously? pieces ripped? enlighten the confused CrazyTongue

It certainly is a nice feeling when everything does what its supposed to

I fell on my first piece, weighted the 2nd, downclimbed/fell on the fourth piece, and pumped out and fell trying to clip the 2nd draw on the anchor (bolted anchors). Like I said, a total shit show.


knieveltech


Jul 26, 2009, 8:54 PM
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Re: [jdwynn] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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jdwynn wrote:
Nice but did you fall on a belay anchor? I was always told your not a trad climber till you fall on your gear.

Whoever told you that is one of the following:

1. a sport climber
2. a suicidal dipshit
3. a wannabe hardman

I see no good reason to fall on gear if it's avoidable. The only reason my perfect lead to fall ratio got blown this weekend is I didn't realize just how badly I was screwing up the beta on this climb until I'd already fallen off it. If I'd thought there was a reasonable chance of falling I would have toproped it first. "The leader must not fall" sounds like pretty good advice to me. YMMV.


Alpine07


Jul 26, 2009, 8:55 PM
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knieveltech wrote:
Factor2 wrote:
knieveltech wrote:
Well, three pieces and the anchor to be exact

Simulateneously? pieces ripped? enlighten the confused CrazyTongue

It certainly is a nice feeling when everything does what its supposed to

I fell on my first piece, weighted the 2nd, downclimbed/fell on the fourth piece, and pumped out and fell trying to clip the 2nd draw on the anchor (bolted anchors). Like I said, a total shit show.

Niiice. May as well make your first, second, and third (did I count that right) falls on gear all on the same climb. Stout 5.7 eh?


codhands


Jul 26, 2009, 8:56 PM
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Sounds fun!


socalclimber


Jul 26, 2009, 9:18 PM
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Definately makes for an interesting day out huh?


AntinJ


Jul 26, 2009, 9:54 PM
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Knieveltech,
That's awesome; and certainly sounds like a shitshow and an unforgettable experience. I took my first "real" screamer on gear this season as well ~ it certainly gets the juices flowing!

How big was your fall?

I also noticed you registered on RC.com back in 2006, did you really go fall-free for almost 3 years?
Good stuff,
J


knieveltech


Jul 27, 2009, 12:26 AM
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Re: [Alpine07] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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Alpine07 wrote:

Niiice. May as well make your first, second, and third (did I count that right) falls on gear all on the same climb. Stout 5.7 eh?

Not according to everyone else in the group Unsure. Apparently I develop a massive blind spot when presented with a crack or something. Three other climbers did the route and mentioned good jugs and sidepulls and whatnot. I have no fucking clue what they're talking about as I was fishing in gear off of two-finger stacks and ringlocks. Pirate


knieveltech


Jul 27, 2009, 12:28 AM
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Re: [AntinJ] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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AntinJ wrote:
I also noticed you registered on RC.com back in 2006, did you really go fall-free for almost 3 years?

Sure did.


healyje


Jul 27, 2009, 2:06 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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Wow. Congrats for the leap. But I am somewhat stunned to read this given the number of posts you've jumped into regarding gear and trad climbing. The internet is interesting in this regard - people without experience or firsthand knowledge letting fly and there is no way of really knowing what what experience they have or what they do actually know unless they post up something that gives you an inkling. Good to know.


ShockSLL


Jul 27, 2009, 5:07 AM
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I seem to remember that route can be a little wet and it's a little weird at spots. I'm not sure if I'd want to fall on that one considering it is so short. I'm glad it worked out for ya.


Jnclk


Jul 27, 2009, 5:16 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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Please explain why a climber falling onto gear is a suicidal dipshit. When placed properly, as you youself found, the gear works. If you aren't going to fall then why even place the gear?


skelterjohn


Jul 27, 2009, 5:46 AM
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Re: [Jnclk] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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Jnclk wrote:
Please explain why a climber falling onto gear is a suicidal dipshit. When placed properly, as you youself found, the gear works. If you aren't going to fall then why even place the gear?

Well, that's not what he said. He said saying "you're not a real trad climber until you fall onto gear" is one of a few ways to be a suicidal idiot.


knieveltech


Jul 27, 2009, 5:51 AM
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Re: [healyje] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
Wow. Congrats for the leap. But I am somewhat stunned to read this given the number of posts you've jumped into regarding gear and trad climbing. The internet is interesting in this regard - people without experience or firsthand knowledge letting fly and there is no way of really knowing what what experience they have or what they do actually know unless they post up something that gives you an inkling. Good to know.

Why shocked? I've been doing stuff on gear for a couple of years now, I just hadn't taken a fall. Like I said upthread "the leader must not fall" always sounded like good advice to me. *shrug*


Alpine07


Jul 27, 2009, 6:24 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
healyje wrote:
Wow. Congrats for the leap. But I am somewhat stunned to read this given the number of posts you've jumped into regarding gear and trad climbing. The internet is interesting in this regard - people without experience or firsthand knowledge letting fly and there is no way of really knowing what what experience they have or what they do actually know unless they post up something that gives you an inkling. Good to know.

Why shocked? I've been doing stuff on gear for a couple of years now, I just hadn't taken a fall. Like I said upthread "the leader must not fall" always sounded like good advice to me. *shrug*

Yep, I wouldn't say that taking a fall on gear is an essential bit of experience to have. Though it is definitely worth your time to know that the gear you just placed is going to hold (or not hold). Just look at ice climbing, and yes, falling is much more dangerous on ice. Will Gadd, at least when he wrote his book, had not taken a fall on an ice screw in his entire ice climbing career! Does that mean that he doesn't know what he is talking about? Nope, just that he is being careful.

I myself have only taken a couple short pitches onto gear. Nothing too spectacular at this point... Except for maybe the one while solo tradding, not a long fall, just scary as shit...


(This post was edited by Alpine07 on Jul 27, 2009, 8:02 AM)


jdwynn


Jul 27, 2009, 7:40 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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There is a change in your mental game and confidence in your gear that comes from unplanned falling on your gear (never fall test gear on purpose that is whats suicidal), seems to me thats what your post is about, the stuff works you found that out and it made enough of an impact that you created an entire thread dedicated to that fact. Its nice to know you place gear that can take a fall so my comments not so far off, i don't know to many trad climbers that never fall on gear, falling on gear is scary but now you wont be as scared.


healyje


Jul 27, 2009, 9:50 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
Why shocked? I've been doing stuff on gear for a couple of years now, I just hadn't taken a fall. Like I said upthread "the leader must not fall" always sounded like good advice to me. *shrug*
Because you've waded into and expressed relatively strong opinions on a wide range of gear and trad related threads without a commensurate level of experience or knowledge and without any caveat to that effect. You may want to consider backing off on that on-line posture a bit or prefacing your remarks with a proviso when joining such frays until you actually do have more experience.

As an aside - "the leader must not fall" is an unfortunate meme that not only will not die, but gets actively propogated on-line these days, even by some well-respected folks like rgold. It has its place on some rock, for some skill levels, on some grades, for some people - but as a blanket statement and meme it's pretty counterproductive on the whole.

Again, it's an interesting Internet phenom - no way to know where someone is at or coming from when they post up and assert opinion or provide commentary.


healyje


Jul 27, 2009, 10:08 AM
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Re: [Alpine07] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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Alpine07 wrote:
Yep, I wouldn't say that taking a fall on gear is an essential bit of experience to have.
You can believe that, but you'd be entirely wrong in that assertion.

Alpine07 wrote:
Just look at ice climbing, and yes, falling is much more dangerous on ice. Will Gadd, at least when he wrote his book, had not taken a fall on an ice screw in his entire ice climbing career!
Ice climbing is a venue where the "must not fall" meme has real value and utility - you carry a few pieces of a single type of pro that presents few options and you are covered head to toe with sharp objects. Selecting and placing screws is neither rocket science, nor does it have much in common with passive and active rock protection beyond they both get clipped. The dangers involved with falling with ice gear go way beyond whether the screw will hold. And last, because of the limited number of screws carried, ice climbing by definition is a run-it-out activity. Anyone logging enough yardage on serious routes ice climbing has earned their opinions falls or not.

But the key there is yardage and seriousness. Log similar number of pitches of hard grades trad climbing without falling and I'd be more likely to take what someone says about some aspects of trad climbing seriously so long as it wasn't about gear, placements, or pushing your limits.


petsfed


Jul 27, 2009, 10:12 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
AntinJ wrote:
I also noticed you registered on RC.com back in 2006, did you really go fall-free for almost 3 years?

Sure did.

Well, lead fall free.

I think I told you this a while back, the worst thing that can happen to a crack climber is tunnel vision. That and getting your tape so tight you can't use a jug when you encounter it.


Alpine07


Jul 27, 2009, 11:11 AM
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Re: [healyje] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
Alpine07 wrote:
Yep, I wouldn't say that taking a fall on gear is an essential bit of experience to have.
You can believe that, but you'd be entirely wrong in that assertion.

Alpine07 wrote:
Just look at ice climbing, and yes, falling is much more dangerous on ice. Will Gadd, at least when he wrote his book, had not taken a fall on an ice screw in his entire ice climbing career!
Ice climbing is a venue where the "must not fall" meme has real value and utility - you carry a few pieces of a single type of pro that presents few options and you are covered head to toe with sharp objects. Selecting and placing screws is neither rocket science, nor does it have much in common with passive and active rock protection beyond they both get clipped. The dangers involved with falling with ice gear go way beyond whether the screw will hold. And last, because of the limited number of screws carried, ice climbing by definition is a run-it-out activity. Anyone logging enough yardage on serious routes ice climbing has earned their opinions falls or not.

But the key there is yardage and seriousness. Log similar number of pitches of hard grades trad climbing without falling and I'd be more likely to take what someone says about some aspects of trad climbing seriously so long as it wasn't about gear, placements, or pushing your limits.

Good post. My using the example of ice climbing was not the best considering all the other dangers involved with falling on ice. But a lot more goes into placing a screw than what you indicate above. For example: finding solid ice, choosing screw length, choosing angle that you place screw based on ice condition, etc. So even though I have not had the personal experience of falling on a screw, I know how to place one correctly. I do not have to have experienced falling on it to know.

I do agree with what you said about yardage and seriousness. Someone who has logged a lot of time will definitely have a more valid opinion on those subjects you listed. But just as in placing an ice screw, I don't think that you have to have fallen on rock gear to know how to place it correctly.


fresh


Jul 27, 2009, 11:14 AM
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Re: [knieveltech] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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knieveltech wrote:
As a side effect of my herculean efforts to turn a 5.7 face climb into a 5.9 crack climb
hahaha how the hell do you do that? isn't it usually turning 5.7 crack into 5.9 face?


the_climber


Jul 27, 2009, 11:18 AM
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Re: [healyje] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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healyje wrote:
As an aside - "the leader must not fall" is an unfortunate meme that not only will not die, but gets actively propogated on-line these days, even by some well-respected folks like rgold. It has its place on some rock, for some skill levels, on some grades, for some people - but as a blanket statement and meme it's pretty counterproductive on the whole.

I used to be in that camp too, but in recent years I've changed how I look at the "don't Fall" meme.

I think if we sub'd in "the leader must know when it is not a good place to fall" for "the leader must not fall", then we'd have a better approach to things.

I'm not advocating falling as a practice (especially while Ice climbing or Alpine climbing), but falling is a fact of life. Gravity ensures that. You can push yourself to the edge without falling, and you can fall when you don't expect it on "easy" ground. The key is knowing when it is not a good place to fall. I did not say knowing when it "is" a good place to fall for a reason.
Steve DeMiao puts it well in his writings about climbing with his frequent refference to "this was not a good place to fall".


healyje


Jul 27, 2009, 11:30 AM
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Re: [Alpine07] First fall on gear [In reply to]
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Alpine07 wrote:
But just as in placing an ice screw, I don't think that you have to have fallen on rock gear to know how to place it correctly.
You don't need to have fallen on pro to have the basics of placing gear in straightforward placements down. But to understand the placement limits of various forms of active and passive gear in their many product manifestations you do have to have fallen more than a few times and further need to have had some marginal gear both hold and pull (small and marginal pro is all about the details). To be honest, I just find expressing strong opinions about the merits or shortcomings of different protection product attributes or use without such experience a bit of a frightening aspect of these on-line venues - too much dubious information ends up in circulation this way.

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