|
shoo
Oct 19, 2009, 7:36 PM
Post #1 of 17
(2824 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
I've been using Grivel g14's for the majority of my ice climbing. My one major gripe is the top strap setup. This is the flat metal sheet that goes from the toe bail to halfway over the boot, where you have to thread a webbing strap through.
All they seem to do for me is to get tangled and slow getting the poons on my boot. I've never had crampons pop off, but maybe I'm lucky. Do they really do anything to prevent them from popping off my boot, or are they there more to keep them from plummeting onto my belayer should they pop?
I'm likely getting a pair of BD cyborgs for this winter. I'm considering taking the top strap setup (webbing and metal piece) off. Is this a bad idea? Does anyone have any alternative suggestions or modifications?
(This post was edited by shoo on Oct 19, 2009, 7:38 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Oct 19, 2009, 10:15 PM
Post #2 of 17
(2791 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
shoo wrote: I've been using Grivel g14's for the majority of my ice climbing. My one major gripe is the top strap setup. This is the flat metal sheet that goes from the toe bail to halfway over the boot, where you have to thread a webbing strap through. All they seem to do for me is to get tangled and slow getting the poons on my boot. I've never had crampons pop off, but maybe I'm lucky. Do they really do anything to prevent them from popping off my boot, or are they there more to keep them from plummeting onto my belayer should they pop? I'm likely getting a pair of BD cyborgs for this winter. I'm considering taking the top strap setup (webbing and metal piece) off. Is this a bad idea? Does anyone have any alternative suggestions or modifications?
i HAVE had them pop off my feet. mid pitch. way run out on thin (though not overly difficult) ice over running water. you can bet your ass i was stoked they were still attached to me and not tumbling toward my belayer!
|
|
|
|
|
rschap
Oct 20, 2009, 3:02 AM
Post #3 of 17
(2751 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 30, 2005
Posts: 592
|
Just to clarify is it this crampon?
I believe the strap runs to the front to hold it on to your boot because it’s not a ridged crampon. In a ridged crampon there’s no flexibility and it’s less likely to pop off. My Trango Harpoons just have a strap around the ankle. I can’t explain what I’m thinking because I’m tiered but basically I think you need it.
|
|
Attachments:
|
220.jpg
(13.0 KB)
|
|
|
|
|
altelis
Oct 20, 2009, 3:06 AM
Post #4 of 17
(2746 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 2168
|
that there's the one.
however, a strap around your ankle and this strap both serve to keep the poon on your foot if it pops.
the toe bail strap helps to keep the poon relatively in the right orientation if the poon pops, however....
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Oct 20, 2009, 3:44 AM
Post #5 of 17
(2734 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
altelis wrote: that there's the one. however, a strap around your ankle and this strap both serve to keep the poon on your foot if it pops. the toe bail strap helps to keep the poon relatively in the right orientation if the poon pops, however....
My current idea is to rig some more convenient ankle strap and try that out. It looks like the petzl poons have something like that. I actually have some small autolocking 2 plate buckles and straps from wild country that might work perfectly.
My thinking is that if the crampon pops off midclimb, I'm going to be basically almost as screwed with he poons hanging from my ankle close to the boot as I would with them still partially strapped to me feet. In either case I'm going to need to have free hands to fix it.
I have not done anything longer than 2 short pitches on ice, so perhaps this is shortsighted.
|
|
|
|
|
brunoschull
Oct 20, 2009, 7:31 AM
Post #6 of 17
(2718 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 47
|
Hi,
That strap is there to 1) help to the crampon on your foot (along with the ankle strap) and 2) help to keep the toe bail firmly seated in the grove on the boot.
From what I understand, there have been accidents because of crampons/toe bails popping off, and partly for that reason many companies are moving away from models which have only an ankle strap.
I would definitely not recommend modifying your crampons, or fixing your own strap--you might end up with something unsafe.
I had a different though related problem with the toe bail/strap of my BD Cyborgs. When mounted correctly on my boot, the metal strap would slowly slide around on the bail, to one side or the other, until the crampon straps came loose. No amount of finesse or adjustment solved this problem, despite the attention of several BD representatives at an ice climbing festival.
What I recommend is that you consider crampons with a plastic toe bail linked by a strap to the rear section. They fit on a range of boots, they are easy to put on, they stay on your feet securely, and the very small amount of play compared to crampons with a metal bail (1 or 2 mm?) has certainly never prevented me from getting up a pitch of ice.
Along these same lines, if you get new crampons, I recommend that you check out crampons with horizontal points, such as the BD Sabertooth, instead of the Cyborg. I have found the horizontal points are more secure that the vertical points--the only thing you might want the vertical points for is dry tooling, mono point, mixed madness. For everything else, WI 5, alpine, short rock steps, I find that the horizontal points are light, precise and solid.
It may seem like I am recommending to you a less "cool" crampon, which is to say, a horizontal point crampon with a plastic toe bail, instead of a vertical point crampon with a metal toe bail, but I really think the simpler crampons are more appropriate for most climbers. Do more with less.
I arrived at this resolution after buying and using Cyborgs with a metal toe bail, Cyborgs with a plastic toe bail, and finally Sabertooths with a plastic toe bail. They work for me on all kinds of climbs.
(Note: expect a great waterfall of varying opinions and advice about this!)
All the best,
Bruno
(This post was edited by brunoschull on Oct 20, 2009, 8:05 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Oct 20, 2009, 1:12 PM
Post #7 of 17
(2702 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
I think i'm still going with the cyborgs with the front metal toe bail, as I want to try my hand at some mixed stuff this winter.
It sounds like the general consensus is to keep the top straps on the way they are. I'll be on the lookout for ways to make them more convenient in any case.
|
|
|
|
|
angry
Oct 20, 2009, 1:27 PM
Post #8 of 17
(2697 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 22, 2003
Posts: 8405
|
I'm trying to think which one (ankle vs. whole foot) I stayed the warmest in. I think it was the ankle because with the whole foot strap I was more prone to overtighten. I can't remember though and I'm not somewhere I can test either. There is definitely a warmness difference though.
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Oct 20, 2009, 5:50 PM
Post #9 of 17
(2659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
shoo wrote: I think i'm still going with the cyborgs with the front metal toe bail, as I want to try my hand at some mixed stuff this winter. It sounds like the general consensus is to keep the top straps on the way they are. I'll be on the lookout for ways to make them more convenient in any case.
You realize the Cyborg is just a G14 knockoff? Right? That the G14 can be set up mono or bi-point? And that the G14 is a great poon for mixed?
You realize this?
Just saying.
Oh, and yes that little metal strap helps hold the wire toebail from poping, and should it pop it holds it just good enough to give you a chance at getting a stance to fire a screw in. Yes they do pop, and it sucks big time when they do. New-matics are better.
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Oct 20, 2009, 6:07 PM
Post #10 of 17
(2649 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
GSBFTW.  (although we'll see how many seasons they'll last).
|
|
|
|
|
sungam
Oct 20, 2009, 6:40 PM
Post #12 of 17
(2633 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 24, 2004
Posts: 26804
|
the_climber wrote: sungam wrote: GSBFTW. (although we'll see how many seasons they'll last). Too bad you won't be testing them in the Canadian Rockies this year. Called the offical "GAME ON!" for my ice season last Saturday BTW... it's Raining in Scotland?  
We call this "misting"...
It's starting to get white in places. A little white. okay, it's all wet mossy and disgusting, but it was well nippy when I got up this morning!
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Oct 20, 2009, 6:54 PM
Post #13 of 17
(2626 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
the_climber wrote: shoo wrote: I think i'm still going with the cyborgs with the front metal toe bail, as I want to try my hand at some mixed stuff this winter. It sounds like the general consensus is to keep the top straps on the way they are. I'll be on the lookout for ways to make them more convenient in any case. You realize the Cyborg is just a G14 knockoff? Right? That the G14 can be set up mono or bi-point? And that the G14 is a great poon for mixed? You realize this? Just saying.
Yeah, actually I do realize that. The G14's were borrowed. I'm now buying my own. If I already owned a pair, I wouldn't bother switching.
Care to have any other snarky comments?
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Oct 20, 2009, 7:08 PM
Post #14 of 17
(2621 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
shoo wrote: the_climber wrote: shoo wrote: I think i'm still going with the cyborgs with the front metal toe bail, as I want to try my hand at some mixed stuff this winter. It sounds like the general consensus is to keep the top straps on the way they are. I'll be on the lookout for ways to make them more convenient in any case. You realize the Cyborg is just a G14 knockoff? Right? That the G14 can be set up mono or bi-point? And that the G14 is a great poon for mixed? You realize this? Just saying. Yeah, actually I do realize that. The G14's were borrowed. I'm now buying my own. If I already owned a pair, I wouldn't bother switching. Care to have any other snarky comments?
Like why didn't you mention you didn't own the G14's in the first place?
No, I think I'm done with the snarky comments... for now. 
If you like the G14's I'd stick with them and look for a pair of those. Personally I'm not sold on the new SS BD poons. SS is more for corrosion resistance and isn't any lighter than cromoly, and definitly not any tougher. As for the bail system, I'll recommend what I have since I made the switch 4 (or is it 5) years ago. Go for the New-matic system. More secure, better feedback, you don't have to wory about blowing your toe bail, ...
And for what it's worth, I haven't had any problem getting Grivel parts in since Grivel NA went belly up.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Oct 20, 2009, 7:08 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
the_climber
Oct 20, 2009, 7:10 PM
Post #15 of 17
(2618 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 9, 2003
Posts: 6142
|
sungam wrote: the_climber wrote: sungam wrote: GSBFTW. (although we'll see how many seasons they'll last). Too bad you won't be testing them in the Canadian Rockies this year. Called the offical "GAME ON!" for my ice season last Saturday BTW... it's Raining in Scotland? ... We call this "misting"... It's starting to get white in places. A little white. okay, it's all wet mossy and disgusting, but it was well nippy when I got up this morning!
"Misting", Eh? Uh-huh.
|
|
|
|
|
julio412
Oct 21, 2009, 4:43 PM
Post #16 of 17
(2583 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 16, 2005
Posts: 144
|
Had bails pop twice on me.'Once on some death march/slog ridge on Rainier( plastics w/ Salewa Messners- no toe strap)and once soloing in Boulder Canyon(leathers w/ litefangs)where I jammed/torqued my foot into a large crack only to squeeze the front bail enough for it to pop-NOT FUN!(again no toe strap).Either keep the toe strap or go with semi autos.I think most stuff BD makes are copies; inprovements yes; but still copies.
|
|
|
|
|
gunkiemike
Nov 5, 2009, 12:55 AM
Post #17 of 17
(2444 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 1, 2002
Posts: 2266
|
I have removed those toe straps (from Petzl Grade 8's). Then turned around and given the cut off straps to someone else that wanted to add them to their toe bails. So different strokes...
Why I took them off - a) they don't really prevent the toe bail from popping off. b) when the poon does pop off, the nylon strap makes such a large loop (around your ankle AND down towards the toe) that the whole thing can slide right off your boot. I've seen it happen. With the toe strap piece removed, the nylon strap is snug around your ankle and you are guaranteed to have it there to swear at/fuss with/ reattach.
|
|
|
|
|
|
