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russianfront
Jan 31, 2010, 7:50 AM
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OK please this is not meant to stir up a bolting debate!! I am not a yahoo hell bent on screwing up people's lines or making a mess out of a rock face. I am developing new routes in a remote place (not in a park) that only me and my friends know about. The rock is granite.
I bought a drill today and want to know if I should return it before I test it out and will then be unable to take it back.
Here is the drill I bought:
http://www.productwiki.com/makita-8390dwpe/
Makita 18V hammer driver-drill
Got it new for a very good price on sale - about $120.
I know it will be far from optimal but as long as I get aactually drill a couple of holes in granite in a reasonable period of time (1-2 min?) I will be happy. Before you tell me to get the 36v mother of all hammer drills, I can't afford it. It is either this or a hand drill like the Petzl Rocpec.
Thanks in advance for your opinion.
John
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JimTitt
Jan 31, 2010, 8:50 AM
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Take it back. You need an rotary hammer drill with SDS to make any impact on any reasonable rock.
The 8390 was one of Makita´s better drill/drivers and for home work is great so if you plan any DIY then keep it. It is a discontinued model.
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angry
Jan 31, 2010, 3:23 PM
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JimTitt wrote: Take it back. You need an rotary hammer drill with SDS to make any impact on any reasonable rock. The 8390 was one of Makita´s better drill/drivers and for home work is great so if you plan any DIY then keep it. It is a discontinued model.
Why SDS?
I use a rotary hammer with an ordinary chuck and it doesn't have any problem. Of course I could probably drill holes in some of this rock with my fingers.
Whenever I've drilled into hard rock I've had SDS but that just happened to be what was available to me. Maybe it makes a difference.
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russianfront
Feb 1, 2010, 3:29 AM
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Still thinking about the drill...to keep or not. I did pick up today a Petzl Rocpec hand drill just to see what that was all about. I got a bomber bolt in but it was a LOT of work...about 40 min of pounding and twisting (inc. rest breaks). I would think that the drill I bought, even if not optimal, would sure be better than hand-drilling.....
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wallwombat
Feb 1, 2010, 3:35 AM
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russianfront wrote: I would think that the drill I bought, even if not optimal, would sure be better than hand-drilling.....
Actually, I really doubt it, especially if you are drilling in to granite. I reckon you will be lucky to even get on hole out of it.
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whipper
Feb 1, 2010, 3:53 AM
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wallwombat wrote: russianfront wrote: I would think that the drill I bought, even if not optimal, would sure be better than hand-drilling..... Actually, I really doubt it, especially if you are drilling in to granite. I reckon you will be lucky to even get on hole out of it.
Agreed, it will not work in granite. It would work in some sandstones, or limestone, but no way, you could barely even drill a 3/8" whole in concrete with it...it is a great tool though
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majid_sabet
Feb 1, 2010, 5:13 AM
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SDS is the only way to go when drilling rocks. None SDS drills are not efficient enough for multi drilling.
may regular drills work well for couple of low level easy crab eating rocks in some none volcanic island but I had seen rocks where where SDS had a hard time drilling.
Buy SDS 36 volt or something in that line.
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guangzhou
Feb 1, 2010, 5:25 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: SDS is the only way to go when drilling rocks. None SDS drills are not efficient enough for multi drilling. may regular drills work well for couple of low level easy crab eating rocks in some none volcanic island but I had seen rocks where where SDS had a hard time drilling. Buy SDS 36 volt or something in that line.
What ever. I have used non- SDS bits with good success.
Low and easy, I've never found the rock's hardness to be related to the routes dificulty.
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wallwombat
Feb 1, 2010, 5:35 AM
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I use a 24v Bosch rotary hammer rigged so I can connect it, with heavy duty speaker wire, to a couple of banked 12v motorcycle batteries. I generally get around 20 holes in granite and about twice that in sandstone. Or half that off one 12v battery. It works a treat.
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mrtristan
Feb 1, 2010, 6:40 AM
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Well, you said that you wanted to drill only a couple holes. You might be able to get one or two with this thing, but I'd return it, save your money and get something else later.
I've done the whole hand drill thing, too. It sucks. BAD.
My first drill was a 24v DeWalt DW004k (here's a link to one on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/...?hash=item27ad207076 for $250 including shipping, just $130 more than what you paid for yours). It's not the best drill but I got about 12 holes per battery in limestone when the thing was new. I've probably drilled over a thousand holes with it and the thing is a freaking tank, though now I only get maybe 8 holes per battery.
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USnavy
Feb 1, 2010, 8:43 AM
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The ONLY option is a hand drill or rotary hammer drill. In hard rock you would be lucky to get one hole per battery with that drill. Its more likely you would get one hole per two battery's. Its also a safety issue using drills like that. When you use a cordless drill on hard rock the hole you drill takes the form of a "S" more then a straight line. Consequently, the bolt can fail to expand properly which could result in a low pull-out strength. I have been able to successfully replicate such circumstances in test using a heavy duty 36v cordless drill vise a hammer drill.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 1, 2010, 8:44 AM)
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jaablink
Feb 1, 2010, 1:16 PM
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We use the EDR-2240... It is not limited by batteries and very light. We used them in AK for trail work, drilling holes in rock to set charges….
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russianfront
Feb 1, 2010, 2:46 PM
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OK I will take it back. Not one person who posted a reply thought that the drill I bought would work. I'm thinking of trading it in for this one:
Makita BHR202 18-Volt LXT Lithium-Ion Cordless 7/8-Inch SDS-Plus Rotary Hammer Kit
I have a friend with this drill and have watched him drill with it. Not the BEST of course but works pretty good. It is SDS.
Which matters most - volts, lbs feet of torque or something else?
And I assume that "hammer mode" is different than "rotary hammer mode". The cheap drill I bought has a hammer and a drill srtting. The more expensive SDS drill above has a setting where it shows the "hammer and drill" at the same setting...I assume this is hammerdrill mode meaning it is bashing the rock as it twists the bit?
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russianfront
Feb 1, 2010, 3:01 PM
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This video shows me the path:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKDIggpbXqU
2 different 18v cordless DeWalt drills. The SDS drill kills the non SDS.
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JimTitt
Feb 1, 2010, 3:39 PM
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And for Angry!
A normal hammer drill operates by having two toothed cluzch plates spring loaded together, under pressure the plates jump over each other and provide a hammering action. But as you are the opposing pressure to the spring there is a limit to the strength of each blow so they are normally set up to give many impacts per revolution. These are of nescessity very weak and the drills tend to vibrate your hands to shit. Also the drill usually comes loose in the chuck and generally the rotation speed is much too high for solid rock and wears/burns the drill bit out. As USNavy says, the holes aren´t usually very straight eithr!
The SDS sytem (there are others but for us this is the usual system) allows the drill bit to slide backwards and forwards while still turning, the maschine itself fires a piton into the back of the drill, giving a higher impact without creating such a fierce vibration, bigger models are pneumatic and give a softer action.
This also allows a lower rotational speed to be used which is all to the good in some types of rock.
This kind of drill will often have a hammer-only setting allowing use as a chisel as well as the more normal hammer-drill setting and drill only setting.
The voltage is irrelevant, what measures the drills effectiveness is it´s power (Wattage) and the impact force (in Joules).
We use the previous model 18V Makita for lead drilling where it is great for 10mm holes but the lack of power is noticeable with 12mm and 16mm drills where you need to go back to something with a bit more grunt.
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USnavy
Feb 2, 2010, 2:11 AM
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russianfront wrote: OK I will take it back. Not one person who posted a reply thought that the drill I bought would work. I'm thinking of trading it in for this one: Makita BHR202 18-Volt LXT Lithium-Ion Cordless 7/8-Inch SDS-Plus Rotary Hammer Kit I have a friend with this drill and have watched him drill with it. Not the BEST of course but works pretty good. It is SDS. Which matters most - volts, lbs feet of torque or something else? And I assume that "hammer mode" is different than "rotary hammer mode". The cheap drill I bought has a hammer and a drill srtting. The more expensive SDS drill above has a setting where it shows the "hammer and drill" at the same setting...I assume this is hammerdrill mode meaning it is bashing the rock as it twists the bit?
Oh and you would be better off getting the Bosch 11536C. It costs less then the drill you listed and its 36v with a higher impact energy rating and a battery 2x the size. Not to mention Bosch invented SDS and their drills are superior to the brand you listed.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 2, 2010, 2:16 AM)
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potreroed
Feb 2, 2010, 4:10 AM
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Return that drill--it will not do the job.
If you're going to bolt on lead you'll want a rig like wallwombat describes--although there is a cheaper alternative: Buy the 110v drill (be sure you get the SDS bit model)(under $200) and run it off a 12v battery with a power inverter (around $70). After all, why buy an expensive cordless drill and then put a cord on it?
Otherwise, I've heard from several sources now that the latest, greatest drill is a 12v cordless Panasonic EY6803GQW available for $250 from allprotools.com. I'm going to be ordering one myself soon.
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angry
Feb 3, 2010, 1:17 PM
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Thanks for the answer, that makes perfect sense now.
I've done most of my bolting in CO and have either borrowed friends drills with SDS or done it by hand so I never really thought of the SDS as anything needed, it just happened to be what I had available to me.
Now this Bermuda rock, is soft. One guy here does have a rotary hammer but it's not SDS. I've never had any problem punching holes in it. The shaking is rather pronounced, especially on those big holes I have to drill to place your bolts. I assumed it was due to the drill being a lower end drill than I had used previously. I did drill one hole the other day that was in outstanding rock (by our standards) and it took forever. I could easily see growing to hate the thing if we had better rock.
As for the hole not going straight, it's true, it's not perfect. Redhead claims up to 1/8" slop is okay with their glues though. A 1/2" glue in would be safe in a 5/8" hole if you used enough glue. Certainly I'm using the right size hole but it's nice to know that their product is designed to work under less than ideal conditions.
FWIW, the Bermuda climbing community (all 4 of us) has declared your bolts the new standard and all new routes will use your bolts. We've seen Ushba failures, your stuff is just so much more robust in this rock. Thanks, we'll place another order soon.
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russianfront
Feb 5, 2010, 4:31 AM
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HOLY COW!
I just got my new drill up and running tonight and went to the basement to try a place a bolt in a small granite rock I took. The drill punched a hole in the granite in literally seconds. I stopped 2x to blow out the dust and debris. Laser-clean hole also.
The only problem is that the bolt didn't want to go all the way in even though I drilled the hole deeper than the bolt by about an inch. It got hard to hammer it in the last bit and I accidentially wacked the side of the bolt a bit and bent the threads so it was totally screwed up.
I need your help here. How hard should it be to bang in the bolt? When I hand-drilled it was easier, maybe because the hole was more sloppy??
Will keep practising on my pet rock collection but need to find cheaper bolts! I just blew $2.7 on a bolt!!
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wiki
Feb 5, 2010, 6:57 AM
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russianfront wrote: HOLY COW! I just got my new drill up and running tonight and went to the basement to try a place a bolt in a small granite rock I took. The drill punched a hole in the granite in literally seconds. I stopped 2x to blow out the dust and debris. Laser-clean hole also. The only problem is that the bolt didn't want to go all the way in even though I drilled the hole deeper than the bolt by about an inch. It got hard to hammer it in the last bit and I accidentially wacked the side of the bolt a bit and bent the threads so it was totally screwed up. I need your help here. How hard should it be to bang in the bolt? When I hand-drilled it was easier, maybe because the hole was more sloppy?? Will keep practising on my pet rock collection but need to find cheaper bolts! I just blew $2.7 on a bolt!!
Put a nut on the bolt to cover the top threads whilst you hammer the bolt in - the very top of the bolt should stick through so you are hammering the bolt rather than the nut (hammering the nut can damage the threads too!).
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sbaclimber
Feb 5, 2010, 8:03 AM
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wiki wrote: russianfront wrote: HOLY COW! I just got my new drill up and running tonight and went to the basement to try a place a bolt in a small granite rock I took. The drill punched a hole in the granite in literally seconds. I stopped 2x to blow out the dust and debris. Laser-clean hole also. The only problem is that the bolt didn't want to go all the way in even though I drilled the hole deeper than the bolt by about an inch. It got hard to hammer it in the last bit and I accidentially wacked the side of the bolt a bit and bent the threads so it was totally screwed up. I need your help here. How hard should it be to bang in the bolt? When I hand-drilled it was easier, maybe because the hole was more sloppy?? Will keep practising on my pet rock collection but need to find cheaper bolts! I just blew $2.7 on a bolt!! whilst you hammer the bolt in - the very top of the bolt should stick through so you are hammering the bolt rather than the nut (hammering the nut can damage the threads too!).
As far as the bolt getting harder to hammer deeper in the hole.....your hole wasn't "laser-clean".
....or at least not "laser-consitent-diameter"...
Yes, it should be a bit hard to hammer in, but consistent the entire length of the hole. If it gets harder or easier drive in along the length of the hole, then be wary.
If you are just practicing, then go to your local hardware store and pick up some galve or plated bolts. They are a hell of a lot cheaper than SS, so it isn't an issue when you munter the threads and leave them sticking in you pet rocks
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Feb 5, 2010, 8:04 AM)
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angry
Feb 5, 2010, 2:19 PM
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I just want to add that it's awesome that you're practicing. Most people don't, they just go out and start bolting. Your bolts will be better for this.
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USnavy
Feb 5, 2010, 2:27 PM
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angry wrote: A 1/2" glue in would be safe in a 5/8" hole if you used enough glue.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Feb 6, 2010, 7:37 PM)
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WildIsle
May 21, 2014, 11:33 PM
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When I was researching Makita cordless SDS drills suitable for climbing anchors this thread came up in my Google search. Unfortunately the posts didn't quite give the full story.
Regardless I too a chance and bought a Makita BHR241. As I already had a battery and charger I only needed the bare drill which cost under $250.
Turns out this inexpensive but well made drill kicks ass and in the past two months I've drilled over 300 3/8" holes in basalt and granite. I get between 7 to 10 holes per charge and would definitely recommend this model.
Incidentally the very similar but slightly smaller BHR202 is the same price but it has a lower power output.
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viciado
May 22, 2014, 2:52 PM
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In general, I think you will find that the batteries are where you will spend the most money. Good bare tools are often 250 or less. If you already have the 18v set-up, it makes some sense to stick with that. But if you are starting from nothing, I would still go with the 36v bare tool and find batteries on sale. I have Used Ryobi, Makita and Hitachi 18v sds and they work fine, but take a lot longer per hole.
Having said that, the Makita 18vx2 LXT provides 36v power using two 18v batteries. It does seem to work well enough, but the one I borrowed was a bit used. FWIW I use a Bosch 11536 which gets about 8 holes per charge.
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