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jkd159
Feb 17, 2010, 3:13 AM
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Do people usually aid climb Moonlight Buttress with one rope or two? I'm planning to aid this route in late March or early April, and would like to know how many ropes to bring.
Advantages of Two Ropes: Easier to retreat without leaving gear. Ability to fix a few pitches on day 1 and climb the route on day 2.
Advantages of One Rope: Don't have to haul a second rope.
We will have two ropes since we also plan to climb Spaceshot and need two ropes to descend from that route. The question is, should we bring the second rope up Moonlight Buttress.
Thanks!
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brendeneng
Feb 18, 2010, 2:36 PM
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Well it all depends on how many people your climbing with? If its just two then technically you could do it with one rope however if you plan on rappeling the route then you would notice on the topo that you need two ropes. I assume there is also a walk off but don't know about it myself.
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flamer
Feb 18, 2010, 3:26 PM
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jkd159 wrote: Do people usually aid climb Moonlight Buttress with one rope or two? I'm planning to aid this route in late March or early April, and would like to know how many ropes to bring. Advantages of Two Ropes: Easier to retreat without leaving gear. Ability to fix a few pitches on day 1 and climb the route on day 2. Advantages of One Rope: Don't have to haul a second rope. We will have two ropes since we also plan to climb Spaceshot and need two ropes to descend from that route. The question is, should we bring the second rope up Moonlight Buttress. Thanks!
Having trouble believing that you had to ask this question.
One rope is always faster. It's all you need to climb the route.
For other applications you'll need 2.
It's that simple.
josh
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jkd159
Feb 18, 2010, 3:33 PM
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angry wrote: You should pick a route that isn't such a popular free route, or free the route. Just sayin.
Fair point, but it was a wildly popular aid route before it became a wildly popular free route. It isn't my fault climbers are so strong. We will start early and yield to faster parties. We won't be hauling.
Still not sure if we need a second rope. Fixing pitches the day before only gets us to the top of pitch 3 with two ropes (and we could always drop the second rope). Seems like the best thing to do is start early and climb it in a day with one rope.
I suppose it all comes down to: How much of a chance is there that we will have to retreat? And we have to make that decision.
Thanks.
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md3
Feb 18, 2010, 4:06 PM
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This is a free route now, you shouldn't be setting out to aid it.
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whipper
Feb 18, 2010, 4:23 PM
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I am really torn on all of this free vs aid...
I dont think I am going to let someone elses style choices affect me. Ethics are one thing, but all these hard and fast rules that people are spouting off, well I have never been a big rule follower. If you can free it, then go for it, if you need to aid it, then go for it. The climbing police are getting a little much for me...just please dont nail it, thats ethics...the other is style....big difference
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camhead
Feb 18, 2010, 4:39 PM
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whipper wrote: I am really torn on all of this free vs aid... I dont think I am going to let someone elses style choices affect me. Ethics are one thing, but all these hard and fast rules that people are spouting off, well I have never been a big rule follower. If you can free it, then go for it, if you need to aid it, then go for it. If you need to hog it up, bivy, and take five hours per pitch, you should probably stay off of it and get on another aid route, despite any sense of self-entitlement
Fixed that for you.
It is all about the evolution from largely aid to largely free. You would be a consensus dick today if you went and aided routes like Primrose Dihedrals or Astroman. Not so much if you were to aid Salathe, and certainly the Nose. Moonlight is somewhere in the middle.
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whipper
Feb 18, 2010, 5:02 PM
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camhead wrote: whipper wrote: I am really torn on all of this free vs aid... I dont think I am going to let someone elses style choices affect me. Ethics are one thing, but all these hard and fast rules that people are spouting off, well I have never been a big rule follower. If you can free it, then go for it, if you need to aid it, then go for it. Fixed that for you. It is all about the evolution from largely aid to largely free. You would be a consensus dick today if you went and aided routes like Primrose Dihedrals or Astroman. Not so much if you were to aid Salathe, and certainly the Nose. Moonlight is somewhere in the middle.
fixed it back, and so what if you think I am a dick...I think stick clipping your way up a sport route is a dick thing to do, I see people do it all the time, but you know what, who gives a fuck. Its climbing, and really, I am not hurting anyone. And I am self entitled to do whatever the hell I want, once again, style is NOT the same as ethics....and I will climb in whatever style I want.
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cracklover
Feb 18, 2010, 5:02 PM
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camhead wrote: whipper wrote: I am really torn on all of this free vs aid... I dont think I am going to let someone elses style choices affect me. Ethics are one thing, but all these hard and fast rules that people are spouting off, well I have never been a big rule follower. If you can free it, then go for it, if you need to aid it, then go for it. If you need to hog it up, bivy, and take five hours per pitch, you should probably stay off of it and get on another aid route, despite any sense of self-entitlementFixed that for you. It is all about the evolution from largely aid to largely free. You would be a consensus dick today if you went and aided routes like Primrose Dihedrals or Astroman. Not so much if you were to aid Salathe, and certainly the Nose. Moonlight is somewhere in the middle.
And, being somewhere in the middle, it seems entirely appropriate to aid it, but yield to faster parties. On any given day, the thing seems to be jam-packed anyway.
GO
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dugl33
Feb 18, 2010, 5:20 PM
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jkd159 wrote: Do people usually aid climb Moonlight Buttress with one rope or two? I'm planning to aid this route in late March or early April, and would like to know how many ropes to bring. Advantages of Two Ropes: Easier to retreat without leaving gear. Ability to fix a few pitches on day 1 and climb the route on day 2. Advantages of One Rope: Don't have to haul a second rope. We will have two ropes since we also plan to climb Spaceshot and need two ropes to descend from that route. The question is, should we bring the second rope up Moonlight Buttress. Thanks!
Its really not that hard to aid trailing two lines. If you're freeing it you could use skinny doubles. With fixed anchors every pitch (?), not being able to bail off a route you've never been on (weather, gear selection, whatever else) seems a bit reckless.
A high level of commitment is admirable but since you've never been up the particular route, I say, take two. The second could be anything from a full size rope to a zip line. The ability to safely retreat, pass gear to the leader, etc outweighs the weight penalty of two ropes imo.
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Carnage
Feb 18, 2010, 5:28 PM
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whipper wrote: camhead wrote: whipper wrote: I am really torn on all of this free vs aid... I dont think I am going to let someone elses style choices affect me. Ethics are one thing, but all these hard and fast rules that people are spouting off, well I have never been a big rule follower. If you can free it, then go for it, if you need to aid it, then go for it. Fixed that for you. It is all about the evolution from largely aid to largely free. You would be a consensus dick today if you went and aided routes like Primrose Dihedrals or Astroman. Not so much if you were to aid Salathe, and certainly the Nose. Moonlight is somewhere in the middle. fixed it back, and so what if you think I am a dick...I think stick clipping your way up a sport route is a dick thing to do, I see people do it all the time, but you know what, who gives a fuck. Its climbing, and really, I am not hurting anyone. And I am self entitled to do whatever the hell I want, once again, style is NOT the same as ethics....and I will climb in whatever style I want.
stick clipping bolt to bolt single pitch usually doesnt affect parties around you ('less they are too busy staring at your amazing muscles, because you are no doubt climbing w/out a shirt on)
the argument is not whether or not your style pisses people off so much that it ruins their day, it is whether your speed affects other climbers, which ruins their day
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jmeizis
Feb 18, 2010, 6:34 PM
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Who gives a crap if someone wants to aid Moonlight, or Primrose for that matter. As long as they're not holding other parties up and being considerate (and not pounding pins) it shouldn't matter.
I've aided plenty of free lines. Hell I've put up topropes for people afraid to lead. Style is only important to the person climbing. I do try to be considerate by going really early, really late, or during crappy weather so I'm avoiding other parties but I've never had someone get pissy because I was aiding and they were free climbing. If they did I'd be tempted to kick their ass.
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cracklover
Feb 18, 2010, 7:22 PM
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jmeizis wrote: Who gives a crap if someone wants to aid Moonlight, or Primrose for that matter. As long as they're not holding other parties up and being considerate (and not pounding pins) it shouldn't matter.
Are you familiar with Moonlight? After Touchstone, it's probably the most popular route in Zion. If it really *was* something that everyone frees (as implied by posts like Angry's) then it would be near impossible to aid it without holding up other parties. I tried to get on it on a nice spring weekend around four years ago, and there were four parties on the first half of the route alone!
In reply to: I've aided plenty of free lines. Hell I've put up topropes for people afraid to lead. Style is only important to the person climbing. I do try to be considerate by going really early, really late, or during crappy weather so I'm avoiding other parties but I've never had someone get pissy because I was aiding and they were free climbing. If they did I'd be tempted to kick their ass.
That's all well and good for routes that don't have an international waiting list. But for a route like, say, Astroman, you'd be a giant douche for aiding it. Oh, and I've never met you, but if push came to shove, I'd guess that the folks free-climbing Astroman would be doing the ass-kicking, not the other way around.
GO
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jmeizis
Feb 18, 2010, 7:48 PM
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Having not climbed it I can only go off what I've read and heard. The way I see it, it's a ten pitch climb with only two pitches that don't have belays on ledges. Guess I don't see the problem in letting a party pass. Assuming a competent free climbing party (better be for climbing that hard) they should be able to get up the route in a day at a relaxed pace with a little bit of a wait and a clusterfuck here and there while they pass aiding parties.
And yes it would be pretty rude to start aiding up a popular free climb on a busy day, that doesn't mean it can't/won't be done. If a faster free party can pass a slower one, not sure why a faster free party can't pass an aiding party. Being considerate is important in all aspects of climbing, not just the co-mingling of free and aid parties. Aiding up a free route in the busiest part of the day on the weekend in the busiest part of the season is inconsiderate. So is being the bumbling party going at a snails pace not letting anyone pass them while they try to free the moves. Both people are douchebags. When push comes to shove I try to be considerate but I would worry greatly for the party that pushes me.
New rule, inconsiderate douchebags should stay off popular free and aid climbs.
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whipper
Feb 18, 2010, 7:58 PM
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cracklover wrote: Oh, and I've never met you, but if push came to shove, I'd guess that the folks free-climbing Astroman would be doing the ass-kicking, not the other way around. GO
News flash...Hard climbing does NOT = ass kicking abilities...trust me on that one
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olderic
Feb 18, 2010, 8:27 PM
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Its fast vs. slow not aid vs. free. If you are slow and creating a bottleneck you better get out of the way. The faster overtaking party might be aiding past the slower "dude I want to just rest 5 minutes before I take a burn and try and send this pitch - it's my proj - knowhatimean?) free climbing dudes.
To the original poster - what are you trying to find out? It's a pretty simple decision - 1 rope vs. 2. Are you going to repeat the question for helmets, headlamps, first aid kits, back up belay devices etc.? Discuss with your partner, negotaite an agreeable level of risk and roll the dice. Anonymous strangers pontificating aren't going to help with that.
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zeke_sf
Feb 18, 2010, 8:36 PM
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whipper wrote: cracklover wrote: Oh, and I've never met you, but if push came to shove, I'd guess that the folks free-climbing Astroman would be doing the ass-kicking, not the other way around. GO News flash...Hard climbing does NOT = ass kicking abilities...trust me on that one
My money's on the fat boys who hauled up plenty of provisions on this one.
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cracklover
Feb 18, 2010, 8:38 PM
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whipper wrote: cracklover wrote: Oh, and I've never met you, but if push came to shove, I'd guess that the folks free-climbing Astroman would be doing the ass-kicking, not the other way around. GO News flash...Hard climbing does NOT = ass kicking abilities...trust me on that one
No opinion on that, the point being that you'd be taking on half of camp 4 by pulling a dick move like that.
GO
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zeke_sf
Feb 18, 2010, 8:41 PM
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cracklover wrote: whipper wrote: cracklover wrote: Oh, and I've never met you, but if push came to shove, I'd guess that the folks free-climbing Astroman would be doing the ass-kicking, not the other way around. GO News flash...Hard climbing does NOT = ass kicking abilities...trust me on that one No opinion on that, the point being that you'd be taking on half of camp 4 by pulling a dick move like that. GO
Oh, come now, let's stop pretending climbers fight. They mostly just whine and grumble behind other peoples' backs.
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snowey
Feb 18, 2010, 8:43 PM
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I think there is a difference between a route that has been freed to one that routinely gets freed. When I went to Moonlight there were also four parties on it and only one was freeing it. Everyone let the free party pass.
On the other hand Astroman and Primrose are rarely aided. I guess what I am advocating is to be mindful when stepping outside of the norm. The same argument can be made about getting on a popular route with a party of 3 or 4 or just being really slow at leading.
As opposed to the competitive surfing culture which encourages everyone to be mean to each other climbing is typically much more accommodating.
Oh yeah. You are all n00bs.
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farmcracker
Feb 18, 2010, 10:34 PM
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He he!
I think we'll try something less crowded.
Glad I checked this.
Don't wanna step on any toes, but I'm 6'5" and most 5.13 climbers don't hassle me.
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