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beansnugget
Mar 2, 2010, 5:27 AM
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I took a lead climbing class yesterday and the instructor was talking about how important foot placement was. He mentioned that sometimes you have to step to the side of the rope, (as opposed to having it between your legs) but I don't understand when you need to do this. Is there a specific sequence (ex: always stepping to the side of the rope between the first and second clip), or is it entirely a judgement call where you step to the side of the rope only to avoid getting tangled up in it?
(This post was edited by beansnugget on Mar 2, 2010, 5:31 AM)
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ryanb
Mar 2, 2010, 5:48 AM
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It is pretty simple but absolutely essential. You need to always have the rope running in such a way that minimizes the chances of you catching your heel/foot/leg on it, flipping over and cracking your head open. The practice of always having this in your mind is what keeps you safe on lead. If you are the logical type, you can use it as a mantra to face your fear. Last sunday I watched a climber trying a hard 11d slab on lead. He was at a point a ways above and to the side of a bolt where he needed to high step onto a sloper and rock over onto his foot but the rope was running over the sloper and he couldn't figure out how to do the move without risking getting his ankle caught on the rope so he jumped off rather then risk flipping. On his next goes he used his foot to lift the rope up so that the rope was above his foot (fully to one side of his body) when he made the high step...little things like this make up the craft of leading safely.
(This post was edited by ryanb on Mar 2, 2010, 5:49 AM)
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beansnugget
Mar 2, 2010, 6:04 AM
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thanks for the response. i do understand why it's essential to be aware of where you place your foot. but specifically i want to know if there's a point in the route where you are required to step to the side of the rope or if it's all a judgement call. Thanks.
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marc801
Mar 2, 2010, 6:13 AM
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beansnugget wrote: thanks for the response. i do understand why it's essential to be aware of where you place your foot. but specifically i want to know if there's a point in the route where you are required to step to the side of the rope or if it's all a judgement call. You step to the side when you need to. Why, why, why do people keep trying to formulate and apply absolute rules in a sport that requires flexibility of thought and judgement?
(This post was edited by marc801 on Mar 2, 2010, 6:15 AM)
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dswink
Mar 2, 2010, 6:16 AM
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If the route goes straight up then rope will trail between your legs without crossing either foot. If the route traverses just a bit to either side then it becomes easy for the rope to run behind a foot if you have not consciously stepped to the side of it. A fall at that point could flip you into a nose dive.
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dugl33
Mar 2, 2010, 7:08 AM
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beansnugget wrote: I took a lead climbing class yesterday and the instructor was talking about how important foot placement was. He mentioned that sometimes you have to step to the side of the rope, (as opposed to having it between your legs) but I don't understand when you need to do this. Is there a specific sequence ( ex: always stepping to the side of the rope between the first and second clip), or is it entirely a judgement call where you step to the side of the rope only to avoid getting tangled up in it? No. Just don't let the rope get behind a leg / ankle. Where you are on the route height-wise has nothing to do with it. If you are heading off to the right from your last piece, you might end up with both feet to the right of the rope. Off to the left, feet might end up to the left of the rope. But no matter what you are doing don't let the rope snake back behind a leg / ankle, such as through your legs and off to one side, for example. Once you've been climbing a while you will intuitively feel when the rope is where it shouldn't be and will reposition your stance or the rope to correct it.
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pylonhead
Mar 2, 2010, 9:29 AM
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People have explained what you need to do and why. Some people have more trouble visualizing what needs to be done than others. This is what worked for my climbing partner: If you're directly above your last piece, keep the rope between your legs. If you have traversed to the side since your last piece, step underneath the rope.
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happiegrrrl
Mar 2, 2010, 9:43 AM
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I remember how *difficult* this concept seemed to me when I started leading. Mostly it was because it was just one of several things I had to be aware of simultaneously, and none of it had yet become intuitive. It was absurd - having all those things in my head, trying to remember even WHAT those things were. That's one reason why new leaders are so slow. The thing that finally eased my mind and helped me "just climb" was when someone said "Keep the rope BETWEEN you and the rock." Nonetheless, it wasn't very long before I found myself in situations where it wasn't possible to do that(like probably the next time I was on lead). Sometimes you just find yourself there, and to "fix" it when you're in a funky, tight, precariously balanced spot, where you can't fully guarantee you can do so without falling(and the rope snagging you into a flip) is not the right thing to do. Instead, you choose "leader must not fall" and get past the move.
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blueeyedclimber
Mar 2, 2010, 1:45 PM
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beansnugget wrote: thanks for the response. i do understand why it's essential to be aware of where you place your foot. but specifically i want to know if there's a point in the route where you are required to step to the side of the rope or if it's all a judgement call. Thanks. No you don't. My advice is to take the class again, possibly with a different teacher, because what you are asking is a mandatory part of Lead Climbing 101. Foot placement when leading is crucial so that the rope is never behind your leg from the heel up. If it is and you were to fall, the rope will go taut when it catches on the last protection and will most likely flip you upside down, sending you out of control and possibly smacking your head against the wall. The first response to you was a decent one, and you still didn't get it, so please take this class again, for your own safety. Josh
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lena_chita
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Mar 2, 2010, 3:07 PM
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beansnugget wrote: thanks for the response. i do understand why it's essential to be aware of where you place your foot. but specifically i want to know if there's a point in the route where you are required to step to the side of the rope or if it's all a judgement call. Thanks. There is no specific point-- you have to be aware of it at all times. Any time you coud fall (which for you is the entire time you are on the route) is the time you need to avoid the rope being behind your foot. It isn't so much just the location of the rope in relationship to your foot, but the combination of that, and the direction in which you are moving, the direction in which you would be falling, and the type of move that you are making, and the rock features. Analyzing it and making a formula would be impossible. But the principle remains the same-- need to avoid the rope wraping around your foot and flipping you in a fall. You will get there with practice.
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patmay81
Mar 2, 2010, 4:47 PM
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pylonhead wrote: step underneath the rope. this is exactly what you DON'T want to do. never step under the rope. if the rope is running behind your leg, foot, or anything for that matter the fall will be most unpleasant. If you are looking for a rule of when you usually want to be next to the rope rather than behind it, you wont find one. I generally try to clip with the rope beside me rather than in front of me, but even then this is not an absolute. its all dependent upon your stance/body possition the route and how you climb.
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shockabuku
Mar 2, 2010, 5:21 PM
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patmay81 wrote: pylonhead wrote: step underneath the rope. this is exactly what you DON'T want to do. never step under the rope. if the rope is running behind your leg, foot, or anything for that matter the fall will be most unpleasant. If you are looking for a rule of when you usually want to be next to the rope rather than behind it, you wont find one. I generally try to clip with the rope beside me rather than in front of me, but even then this is not an absolute. its all dependent upon your stance/body possition the route and how you climb. Really? Because I do what I would call stepping under the rope frequently. This puts the rope resting over my thigh as opposed to behind my foot/calf/knee. But maybe we mean different things. I would say be careful about stepping over or behind the rope (and placing your foot behind it).
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ryanb
Mar 2, 2010, 5:31 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: Sometimes you just find yourself there, and to "fix" it when you're in a funky, tight, precariously balanced spot, where you can't fully guarantee you can do so without falling(and the rope snagging you into a flip) is not the right thing to do. Instead, you choose "leader must not fall" and get past the move. I notice a lot of beginning trad climbers doing this on hand and fist cracks where the feet and rope are all forced into the same general area. I would argue that this is the wrong approach to take...I feel that it is dangerous to make a practice of pushing on through unsafe situations. It might work most of the time on easy climbs but it is sketch and will lead to death if you start trying harder climbs. To be a truly safe leader one needs to develop constant focus and mindfulness of things like this. If you find yourself in a situation where you can't progress safely you have a number of options: Downclimb/reverse a mover or two Hang out and try and place gear higher or figure out a way to progress safely. Jump off and take the fall. Convince someone to drop you a top rope. You should decide exactly how much risk you are willing to take before you leave the ground and use these options to not let yourself get past this limit...a good leader should never be in the situation you describe.
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pylonhead
Mar 2, 2010, 5:42 PM
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shockabuku wrote: patmay81 wrote: pylonhead wrote: step underneath the rope. this is exactly what you DON'T want to do. never step under the rope. if the rope is running behind your leg, foot, or anything for that matter the fall will be most unpleasant. If you are looking for a rule of when you usually want to be next to the rope rather than behind it, you wont find one. I generally try to clip with the rope beside me rather than in front of me, but even then this is not an absolute. its all dependent upon your stance/body possition the route and how you climb. Really? Because I do what I would call stepping under the rope frequently. This puts the rope resting over my thigh as opposed to behind my foot/calf/knee. But maybe we mean different things. I would say be careful about stepping over or behind the rope (and placing your foot behind it). This is correct.
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shoo
Mar 2, 2010, 6:08 PM
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I thought this said food placement, and was expecting tips on how to stash candy bars in finger cracks. Needless to say, I am very disappointed.
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zeke_sf
Mar 2, 2010, 6:29 PM
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ryanb wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Sometimes you just find yourself there, and to "fix" it when you're in a funky, tight, precariously balanced spot, where you can't fully guarantee you can do so without falling(and the rope snagging you into a flip) is not the right thing to do. Instead, you choose "leader must not fall" and get past the move. I notice a lot of beginning trad climbers doing this on hand and fist cracks where the feet and rope are all forced into the same general area. I would argue that this is the wrong approach to take...I feel that it is dangerous to make a practice of pushing on through unsafe situations. It might work most of the time on easy climbs but it is sketch and will lead to death if you start trying harder climbs. To be a truly safe leader one needs to develop constant focus and mindfulness of things like this. If you find yourself in a situation where you can't progress safely you have a number of options: Downclimb/reverse a mover or two Hang out and try and place gear higher or figure out a way to progress safely. Jump off and take the fall. Convince someone to drop you a top rope. You should decide exactly how much risk you are willing to take before you leave the ground and use these options to not let yourself get past this limit...a good leader should never be in the situation you describe. I actually side with HG on this one. The only way you can truly prevent these situations is never leave the ground at all, good leader or not. Climbing contains adventure and adventure is comprised of uncertainty, so climbers will necessarily find themselves in unanticipated situations. Yes, trying to prevent problems is ideal, but you sometimes have to climb your way out of trouble, deal with the crappy situation you are in, and realize the moments in which you must not fall.
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qtm
Mar 2, 2010, 6:48 PM
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beansnugget wrote: He mentioned that sometimes you have to step to the side of the rope, (as opposed to having it between your legs) Sometimes? LoL... it depends on the route and the placement of the gear. There's really no "rule". Maybe if you're clipping bolts, the rope will always run the the same way so at the same spot, you're going to be on the same side of the rope as everyone else. With trad, I might place gear lower to the right here, and someone taller might place it on the left a little higher up. So we'd be on different sides of the rope in the same spot. Depending on the available gear placements, you may be placing gear left and right of the route, thus necessitating moving back and forth across the rope. Sometimes you have no idea where the route goes. You try going straight up but can't find it, so you move to the left, nothing there, move to the right, then try left again. Every time you move your feet, you have to keep in mind where the rope is and where your feet are.
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ryanb
Mar 2, 2010, 7:17 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: ryanb wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Sometimes you just find yourself there, and to "fix" it when you're in a funky, tight, precariously balanced spot, where you can't fully guarantee you can do so without falling(and the rope snagging you into a flip) is not the right thing to do. Instead, you choose "leader must not fall" and get past the move. I notice a lot of beginning trad climbers doing this on hand and fist cracks where the feet and rope are all forced into the same general area. I would argue that this is the wrong approach to take...I feel that it is dangerous to make a practice of pushing on through unsafe situations. It might work most of the time on easy climbs but it is sketch and will lead to death if you start trying harder climbs. To be a truly safe leader one needs to develop constant focus and mindfulness of things like this. If you find yourself in a situation where you can't progress safely you have a number of options: Downclimb/reverse a mover or two Hang out and try and place gear higher or figure out a way to progress safely. Jump off and take the fall. Convince someone to drop you a top rope. You should decide exactly how much risk you are willing to take before you leave the ground and use these options to not let yourself get past this limit...a good leader should never be in the situation you describe. I actually side with HG on this one. The only way you can truly prevent these situations is never leave the ground at all, good leader or not. Climbing contains adventure and adventure is comprised of uncertainty, so climbers will necessarily find themselves in unanticipated situations. Yes, trying to prevent problems is ideal, but you sometimes have to climb your way out of trouble, deal with the crappy situation you are in, and realize the moments in which you must not fall. My point is not that one should avoid all risk in climbing. My point is that a good leader decides what risks they are willing to accept and what they are going to avoid and that thrutching upwards with the rope behind your leg is both very avoidable and very risky. I am not a risk adverse climber, I have tried (and fallen on) R rated routes above my lead level (mid to high 11's) on natural gear and onsite and I have belayed very skilled climbers trying R rated 12's onsite. In these situations falls are expected but having ones leg caught behind the rope is entirely unacceptable even on the easy but run out terrain as it greatly increases the risk of injury/death...If I see a leader accidently get their foot caught up in the rope I tell them so and I expect the same from my belayer. I feel it is best for beginning leader to develop this habit early and practice it always... it is not that difficult to avoid having ones heel caught on the rope ... many consider it a very basic skill of leading. Watch video of people trying hard R/X rated climbs (or even non R/X hard climbs). I guarantee you will never see them with their leg caught up in the rope even when they are firmly in no fall territory.
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zeke_sf
Mar 2, 2010, 7:39 PM
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ryanb wrote: zeke_sf wrote: ryanb wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Sometimes you just find yourself there, and to "fix" it when you're in a funky, tight, precariously balanced spot, where you can't fully guarantee you can do so without falling(and the rope snagging you into a flip) is not the right thing to do. Instead, you choose "leader must not fall" and get past the move. I notice a lot of beginning trad climbers doing this on hand and fist cracks where the feet and rope are all forced into the same general area. I would argue that this is the wrong approach to take...I feel that it is dangerous to make a practice of pushing on through unsafe situations. It might work most of the time on easy climbs but it is sketch and will lead to death if you start trying harder climbs. To be a truly safe leader one needs to develop constant focus and mindfulness of things like this. If you find yourself in a situation where you can't progress safely you have a number of options: Downclimb/reverse a mover or two Hang out and try and place gear higher or figure out a way to progress safely. Jump off and take the fall. Convince someone to drop you a top rope. You should decide exactly how much risk you are willing to take before you leave the ground and use these options to not let yourself get past this limit...a good leader should never be in the situation you describe. I actually side with HG on this one. The only way you can truly prevent these situations is never leave the ground at all, good leader or not. Climbing contains adventure and adventure is comprised of uncertainty, so climbers will necessarily find themselves in unanticipated situations. Yes, trying to prevent problems is ideal, but you sometimes have to climb your way out of trouble, deal with the crappy situation you are in, and realize the moments in which you must not fall. My point is not that one should avoid all risk in climbing. My point is that a good leader decides what risks they are willing to accept and what they are going to avoid and that thrutching upwards with the rope behind your leg is both very avoidable and very risky. I am not a risk adverse climber, I have tried (and fallen on) R rated routes above my lead level (mid to high 11's) on natural gear and onsite and I have belayed very skilled climbers trying R rated 12's onsite. In these situations falls are expected but having ones leg caught behind the rope is entirely unacceptable even on the easy but run out terrain as it greatly increases the risk of injury/death...If I see a leader accidently get their foot caught up in the rope I tell them so and I expect the same from my belayer. I feel it is best for beginning leader to develop this habit early and practice it always... it is not that difficult to avoid having ones heel caught on the rope ... many consider it a very basic skill of leading. Watch video of people trying hard R/X rated climbs (or even non R/X hard climbs). I guarantee you will never see them with their leg caught up in the rope even when they are firmly in no fall territory. I completely get all of what you're saying and am still raising you a shit happens. I'm not saying to be slipshod in avoiding this situation, however, and if that is your interpretation, you completely misunderstand me.
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happiegrrrl
Mar 2, 2010, 7:58 PM
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I don't thrutch up routes, and no new leader should be thrutching either. But sometimes the gear you got sets the rope in a certain way. And if the sequence doesn't offer many options, and it's a tight situation(a corner, and arete, a roof, a roof in a corner....), you *may* find yourself choosing between placing your foot within the rope system on a sequence you can guarantee and trying to sketch your way out of it. At any rate - do understand your position, and and agree that we need to assess risk and accept responsibility for our decisions. I think that my scenario was actually suggesting exactly that. Have you never found yourself having stepped within the rope system. Ever?
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ryanb
Mar 2, 2010, 8:00 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: I completely get all of what you're saying and am still raising you a shit happens. I'm not saying to be slipshod in avoiding this situation, however, and if that is your interpretation, you completely misunderstand me. It sounds like me may agree on more then we disagree on. Still to respond to your raise, shit happens but shit never puts your leg behind the rope. Only you can do that and if you do you have only your own lack of awareness to blame. When shit does start to happen, you have a number of options. Climbing on trying not to fall may be the best in some situations but I have found these to be quite rare.
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ryanb
Mar 2, 2010, 8:16 PM
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happiegrrrl wrote: Have you never found yourself having stepped within the rope system. Ever? Certainly I have... pretty much every time I crack climb my feet are quite near the rope for most of the route. In these situations I try to make an educated guess about which way I will fall and run the rope to the other side of the crack by extending my gear and use my thigh, toes and knee and hands to keep the rope on one side of my body. I've also done a lot of slabs that require a foot to be placed on a bad smear immediately above a bolt or piece of gear which can be a bit sketch but again, I make a judgement call about which way a fall is probable, weather it is better to have the rope between my legs or over a toe or a knee try the move and if i fall try and fall in the "safe direction". All of this takes a lot of focus and may be overkill for some one who never pushes themselves to the point where falls are likely but it is the only way I have figured out to minimize the chance of flipping when you do fall.
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zeke_sf
Mar 2, 2010, 8:50 PM
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ryanb wrote: happiegrrrl wrote: Have you never found yourself having stepped within the rope system. Ever? Certainly I have... pretty much every time I crack climb my feet are quite near the rope for most of the route. In these situations I try to make an educated guess about which way I will fall and run the rope to the other side of the crack by extending my gear and use my thigh, toes and knee and hands to keep the rope on one side of my body. I've also done a lot of slabs that require a foot to be placed on a bad smear immediately above a bolt or piece of gear which can be a bit sketch but again, I make a judgement call about which way a fall is probable, weather it is better to have the rope between my legs or over a toe or a knee try the move and if i fall try and fall in the "safe direction". All of this takes a lot of focus and may be overkill for some one who never pushes themselves to the point where falls are likely but it is the only way I have figured out to minimize the chance of flipping when you do fall. You are back stepping from the absolute of shit never happens to the land of probable and educated guesses. This is a more accurate approach in my opinion.
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