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rangerrob
May 12, 2010, 2:43 AM
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Guan I think you may be in the minority here. It's great that you had the skill and the headspace to just do it. I think a lot of people would get in trouble using that philosophy though, without doing any sort of apprenticeship with an experienced climber. We're not talking about years here, but most people would benefit from learning how to keep themselves safe. Placing gear is not complicated, you're right. Placing gear correctly however, takes time to learn. You better hope you're strong if you just want to "figure it out".
RR
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guangzhou
May 12, 2010, 3:04 AM
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Again, I think the longer you delay the leading, the harder it is to become proficient. You build a fear by avoiding it.
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rangerrob
May 12, 2010, 5:27 PM
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Again I have to disagree with you. I'm not saying you have to wait 5 years, but seconding an experienced leader for a season will vastly speed up your learning. You won't learn nearly as fast if you just fumble around and try to learn through making mistakes. We're not talking about learning how to lead harder, we're talking about learnign how to lead safely.
How do you set opposing nuts for flaring cracks?
How do you protect the second on a traverse?
How do you protect the belayer when climbing off the belay?
When do you extend pieces?
When do you not extend pieces?
When do you place gear, when do you not place gear?
Why would you use a nut instead of a cam?
How do different sized cams walk, and how do you prevent it?
Will a #3 BD Stopper hold a 20 footer with 60' of rope out?
Should I string these two pitches together? Why, or why not?
And lots lots more.
Of course all of this doesn't count for clipping bolts. We all know that's not really leading. That's just playing around, and there's not much to know about clipping bolts anyway.
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guangzhou
May 13, 2010, 12:46 AM
Post #54 of 72
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rangerrob wrote: Again I have to disagree with you. I'm not saying you have to wait 5 years, but seconding an experienced leader for a season will vastly speed up your learning. You won't learn nearly as fast if you just fumble around and try to learn through making mistakes. We're not talking about learning how to lead harder, we're talking about learnign how to lead safely.
I don't disagree that having someone who lead and following will speed up your learning curve, but I think you can start doing easy lead very early on. Especially on easy trad lines.
I took a team of Army guys out for a three week course. They had never tied into a rope for climbing purposes. The first day, they did a ground course learning to tie in, use the personal gear, and the afternoon was used to place gear and have it inspected at ground level
Day two, they learn to aid on Top Rope. They placed all their own geared, lowered, then cleaned all the pitches themselves.
We practiced aid on top rope for three days, then they lead the same route on aid.
After doign a dozen aid leads, they spent a day bouldering and learning to use their shoes. The next day, they dd some easy trad leads with no top ropes. By then they knew how to place the gear.
Second day, they took practice falls on placed gear. Some were takking 20 footers on the gear they placed after falling just a few time.
We practice, some other systems too, including hauling and likes. Basic self rescue.
The third week, they broke in three teams of three and climbed Glass Menagerie on the North side of Looking glass. The only issues we had was that the route was crowded.
In reply to: How do you set opposing nuts for flaring cracks?
In reply to: How do you protect the second on a traverse? How do you protect the belayer when climbing off the belay? When do you extend pieces? When do you not extend pieces? When do you place gear, when do you not place gear? Why would you use a nut instead of a cam? How do different sized cams walk, and how do you prevent it? Will a #3 BD Stopper hold a 20 footer with 60' of rope out? Should I string these two pitches together? Why, or why not? And lots lots more. Of course all of this doesn't count for clipping bolts. We all know that's not really leading. That's just playing around, and there's not much to know about clipping bolts anyway.
Again, all the the above are good know and not hard to learn. I didn't say don't seek out help and people who climb already. What I said was get started as soon as possible. The longer you wait, the harder it is to over come the mental barier you build up.
Some people can learn to lead the first month, they have way of thinking that allows it, they process information quickly, they understand and can visual how systems work. Other have to wait longer. Regardless, you should start as quickly as yu can.
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glovedclimber413
May 13, 2010, 2:56 AM
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at my gym the lead routes start at 5.9 and once i could climb those clean i then was able to take the lead class...basically whatever bolted route that you can climb comfortably you should then start leading it
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guangzhou
May 13, 2010, 4:14 AM
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glovedclimber413 wrote: at my gym the lead routes start at 5.9 and once i could climb those clean i then was able to take the lead class...basically whatever bolted route that you can climb comfortably you should then start leading it
Personally, I climb better on lead than on toprope. Not everyone.
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rangerrob
May 13, 2010, 6:15 PM
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I happen to agree with you there. I climb way better on lead than I do on toprope. I tend not to look for the rests on tr, which leads to me getting pumped too quickly. On lead everything is about stances.
As for the opposing nuts...all the time my man! it turns a jingus flaring nut placement into a solid confidence booster. I just did it on Monday to protect the crux of a 10b roof pitch. A flared #7 stopper placement would have lifted out with only minimal movement. I placed a #1 RP further back and clove hitched them together, then clipped the #7 with a seperate draw. That puppy was solid! Glad I did too. Once I pulled the lip I had to run for 15 feet on steeeeep ground to get to a stance. I was looking at a 30 footer and it would have been on a wobbly nut had I not opposed it. All I can say is, I am glad my mentor made me climb the easy shit with just nuts back in the day, or else I wouldn't have had that in my toolbox and I would have bailed.
RR
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guangzhou
May 14, 2010, 12:33 AM
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Sounds like a fun route. I learned to climb on nuts and hexes too. Did my first big wall, Leaning tower on nuts and hexes, a few tri-cams too. Washington column, my second wall was the first time I used a cam. The smallest Wired Bliss tcu they made.
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TomUK
May 14, 2010, 1:41 PM
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Surely a lot of people climb better when they lead? The pressure and the fact that if a mistake is made more will go wrong than when top roping!
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blueeyedclimber
May 14, 2010, 2:17 PM
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rangerrob wrote: Again I have to disagree with you. I'm not saying you have to wait 5 years, but seconding an experienced leader for a season will vastly speed up your learning. You won't learn nearly as fast if you just fumble around and try to learn through making mistakes. We're not talking about learning how to lead harder, we're talking about learnign how to lead safely. How do you set opposing nuts for flaring cracks? How do you protect the second on a traverse? How do you protect the belayer when climbing off the belay? When do you extend pieces? When do you not extend pieces? When do you place gear, when do you not place gear? Why would you use a nut instead of a cam? How do different sized cams walk, and how do you prevent it? Will a #3 BD Stopper hold a 20 footer with 60' of rope out? Should I string these two pitches together? Why, or why not? And lots lots more.
All of those can be found in a book, but I didn't know any of that when I started leading (well, maybe in theory I knew some of them).
I think the answer lies somewhere between "Just do it!" and "Learn under an experienced mentor." It's also important to know yourself and what you are capable of taking on.
My learning was largely self-directed, but I also learned a lot from others. With a combination of books, videos, more experienced climbers and my own ability to figure things out, I am where I am.
I thinks it's ok to say "just do it" with the caveat that you are someone who CAN "Just do it, without killing themselves."
Josh
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TomUK
May 14, 2010, 2:30 PM
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Confidence in yourself and whoever is teaching you is important. Someone who's been climbing a while will be able to tell you what to do; starting on easier climbs little mistakes made when leading will bring less severe outcomes!
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rangerrob
May 14, 2010, 2:32 PM
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you can read how to build a house from a book too, doesn't mean you are going to do it correctly, or efficiently
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TomUK
May 14, 2010, 2:41 PM
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No one climbs efficiently when they start leading do they. A book doesn't show you exactly how to do it on the rock but will give people a basic idea with which to build on with experience.
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olderic
May 14, 2010, 4:31 PM
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Well think about this - how many of the really good, successful, everybody-knows-their-name type of climbers over the last 100 years had much of any formal training? Seems like there are a lot of "I borrowed my Mom's clothesline and snuck off to the woods. Had some adventures.
The ones who are going to excel at it typically start out with a bolder approach. So if you have to ask the question in a forum like this.....
But maybe you don't care if you are cutting edge and just want to have fun then by all means take any approach that seems best for you. Still it seems like an odd question to ask - when to do something that is a personal choice. How is someone else going to know whats best for you?
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rangerrob
May 14, 2010, 9:04 PM
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Eric that's the best response I have heard yet, and that includes my own!!! Totally true
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TomUK
May 14, 2010, 10:36 PM
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Eric do you not think that this happened in years gone by because the equipment used today wasn't even around? I know it was in a basic form but in todays health and safety mad world and strict parent environment this just wouldn't ever happen.
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olderic
May 15, 2010, 1:15 AM
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Certainly gear - especially trad gear - is more sophisticated and complex and the learning curve is greater today. Akthough that is somewhat mitigated by the dumbed down options that people have available to get into leading now a days - sport and plastic. But I think in any era there have been impulsive folks who just do it - see someone else climbing perhaps and figure it looks pretty simple. My conjecture is that people who start out that way - I suppose you could throw in the caveat - "If they survive" - but most do - will end up being the best (lets not rathole on defining "best") climbers.
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glovedclimber413
May 16, 2010, 1:22 AM
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i would agree with you that i also climb better when i lead simply because you have to (mistakes actually affect you if you are leading)
my point was that it is easier to push yourself and do harder climbs on tr because there is basically no consequences for screwing up...unless you screw up tying your knot
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ClimbClimb
May 16, 2010, 7:38 PM
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olderic wrote: Well think about this - how many of the really good, successful, everybody-knows-their-name type of climbers over the last 100 years had much of any formal training?
How many the everybody-knows-their-name typ eof climbers over the last 100 years died of old age?
Also, how many of the "would have been good if he lived" young climbers were out there for every one that "figured it out with Mom's clothesline"?
I think you may very well be right, talent and risk-taking being essential for greatness, but I'm not sure I'm in any rush to encourage the OP to take that approach. I'd feel bad if something happened.
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blueeyedclimber
May 17, 2010, 12:18 PM
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olderic wrote: Well think about this - how many of the really good, successful, everybody-knows-their-name type of climbers over the last 100 years had much of any formal training? Seems like there are a lot of "I borrowed my Mom's clothesline and snuck off to the woods. Had some adventures. The ones who are going to excel at it typically start out with a bolder approach. So if you have to ask the question in a forum like this..... But maybe you don't care if you are cutting edge and just want to have fun then by all means take any approach that seems best for you. Still it seems like an odd question to ask - when to do something that is a personal choice. How is someone else going to know whats best for you?
I agree (to an extent), but just to play devil's advocate.....How many do you think killed themselves from climbing on their mom's clothesline, having some adventures, and therefore never got to be household names?
But you're right, how are we going to know what's best for the individual? Which is why, usually the best advice is the take it slow and safe. There are certainly people that can rush into and learn as they go, but there is no way to tell on line if you are one of those people.
Josh
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olderic
May 17, 2010, 1:49 PM
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Actually I think very few end up getting seriously hurt or killed. Give come credit for human instinct and the power of self preservation. How many adolescent males drive dangerously? How many are killed? Of course it is the worse tragedy imaginable if he is yours - I'm not arguing that - but statistically it really isn't a very large percent.
You guys are spot on with the suggestion that IF the question is asked (the bold ones aren't going to ask) like the OP did - then conservative advice is called for.
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