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redlude97
May 19, 2010, 8:43 PM
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shu2kill wrote: redlude97 wrote: shu2kill wrote: turbodarky wrote: Personally I think it's unnecessary, because all the anchors I've used have more than 3 links hanging from the hangers. So what I do is anchor to the top link, then by putting my weight on it, the other two links hanging freely allows you to remove your draw(s) and run the rope through the last link. Allowing you to set up your belay device, take the weight off the PAS and unclip.not sure if it's the best way (not the safest by any means) but its always been smooth cleaning my routes this way. thats the way i do it too. but maybe your chains are bigger than the ones normally found here. because i have noticed that when i anchor on one link and then transfer my weight to the last link (threading the rope and loading the rappel devece), the biner sometimes gets pinched and stuck between the link it is clipped and the one under it. so i have to release my weight off the chains to be able to remove the biners, even if they are not holding any weight.... so, even if thats how we do it and its very possible, its definitely not always smooth or easy... Looks like you are using lockers that are too big(belay lockers). I like to use BD positron or vaporlock lockers, which work great with just about any anchor I encounter due to the small nose. well, im using the ones on the pics since those are the skinnier ones i have... are the ones you mention smaller than those?? mine are trango screwlocks i believe....
(This post was edited by redlude97 on May 19, 2010, 8:43 PM)
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socalclimber
May 19, 2010, 8:45 PM
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shu2kill wrote: socalclimber wrote: This is probably ok, my bigger concern is the second photo. That bolt on the left is a bit to close to that crack for my liking. I don't know the area, but that rock looks friable to me. Again, I'm not seeing this in person, but I'm not real sure that one bolt is all that good. Can anybody comment on this? well, the rock is not the hardest one. and as you can see in the same pic, i hammered several places farther away from the edge, but the rock sounded like hollow. i noticed i was going to bolt it close to the edge, but it was either there, or in the rock that didnt sound good. im using 1/2" bolts, and i was told to leave at least 10X diameter of the bolt from any rock's imperfection. i think the edge is about 5" from the hole, barely at 10Xdiameter. i didnt measure, just estimated....
Yeah, I understand the hollow part. Keep an eye on the left bolt. I prefer a foot distance from cracks or other "imperfections" on rock like that, but hey, if it's all you could get, so be it.
Another question, would there have been any other place either lower or higher that the bolts could have been placed?
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shu2kill
May 19, 2010, 8:50 PM
Post #28 of 60
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i have one of this, trango neoclassic, that i use for my grigri
and the ones in the pictures are 2 of the same, but the previous model, which i think is slightly skinnier...
i also have 2 of these:
the ones im using are the ones i have found fit best on chains, from what i have, which is not much...
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hafilax
May 19, 2010, 8:51 PM
Post #29 of 60
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shu2kill wrote: hafilax wrote: Connecting to the ends of the chains would set up a pretty large angle that wouldn't be desirable for a lead anchor but is insignificant for rappelling. what do you mean?? in my understanding, conecting the 2 smaller tails with the rope would create the ADT. but those are to be used to anchor yourself, and the rope is threaded through the loner tails, which are set more or less equalized under the hangers....
A quick glance at your photos made it look to me like the chains were on the short side making for a large angle to the bolts. No big deal in the grand scheme of things IMO. I'm perfectly comfortable rappelling off of rap bolts with no equalization as long as the bolts seem solid.
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shu2kill
May 19, 2010, 8:55 PM
Post #30 of 60
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socalclimber wrote: shu2kill wrote: socalclimber wrote: This is probably ok, my bigger concern is the second photo. That bolt on the left is a bit to close to that crack for my liking. I don't know the area, but that rock looks friable to me. Again, I'm not seeing this in person, but I'm not real sure that one bolt is all that good. Can anybody comment on this? well, the rock is not the hardest one. and as you can see in the same pic, i hammered several places farther away from the edge, but the rock sounded like hollow. i noticed i was going to bolt it close to the edge, but it was either there, or in the rock that didnt sound good. im using 1/2" bolts, and i was told to leave at least 10X diameter of the bolt from any rock's imperfection. i think the edge is about 5" from the hole, barely at 10Xdiameter. i didnt measure, just estimated.... Yeah, I understand the hollow part. Keep an eye on the left bolt. I prefer a foot distance from cracks or other "imperfections" on rock like that, but hey, if it's all you could get, so be it. Another question, would there have been any other place either lower or higher that the bolts could have been placed?
thanx, ill keep an eye on it and relocate it if necessary....
the original anchors were about 6 feet higher, in a place easily accesible by walking. so i rappeled from them trying to find a solid place to put new anchors where they couldnt be reached without a rope, and suddenly i was at the last hanger. so i thought that would be a good place to set the anchor, but that was the only part hard enough to drill. the other solid area was like 2 feet above it, so it would require a very long chain....
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shu2kill
May 19, 2010, 8:58 PM
Post #31 of 60
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hafilax wrote: shu2kill wrote: hafilax wrote: Connecting to the ends of the chains would set up a pretty large angle that wouldn't be desirable for a lead anchor but is insignificant for rappelling. what do you mean?? in my understanding, conecting the 2 smaller tails with the rope would create the ADT. but those are to be used to anchor yourself, and the rope is threaded through the loner tails, which are set more or less equalized under the hangers.... The common usage of American Death Triangle is a single piece of webbing passed through 2 bolts and tied. The single strand coming out below the biners is used to anchor with making for a non-redundant setup with larger than necessary forces on the bolts. Like this: [image]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ejAk42p7jdY/SW9qapR4oZI/AAAAAAAACzU/J0lz9b398Do/s400/Death+Triangle.jpg[/image] A quick glance at your photos made it look to me like the chains were on the short side making for a large angle to the bolts. No big deal in the grand scheme of things IMO. I'm perfectly comfortable rappelling off of rap bolts with no equalization as long as the bolts seem solid.
thanx, thats what i also understand as the ADT. so, threading the rope through the smaller tails would create it....
on another thing, have you seen FIXE double ring anchors?? they recommend you to put them at the same height. wouldnt this create the same forces as the ADT??? personally i prefer them to have some extension so they equalize and pull mostly downwards and not also to the inside of the triangle.....
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summerprophet
May 19, 2010, 9:20 PM
Post #32 of 60
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shu2kill,
Just a note, I have always taught clients to lift the existing chains, and build an anchor underneath them. This minimizes the use of unknown gear, as well as preserves the chains for anyone needing it to rappel.
Also, smash links, rather than screw links may assist in preserving your anchors. The shiny new chains may offend some looking for a winderness experience, causing them to remove the chains (yet leave the painted hangers). Camoflaging the chains MAY solve your problem. Again, I do not know where you climb, or the attitudes towards climbers.
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shu2kill
May 19, 2010, 9:25 PM
Post #33 of 60
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summerprophet wrote: shu2kill, Just a note, I have always taught clients to lift the existing chains, and build an anchor underneath them. This minimizes the use of unknown gear, as well as preserves the chains for anyone needing it to rappel. Also, smash links, rather than screw links may assist in preserving your anchors. The shiny new chains may offend some looking for a winderness experience, causing them to remove the chains (yet leave the painted hangers). Camoflaging the chains MAY solve your problem. Again, I do not know where you climb, or the attitudes towards climbers.
i dont think im understanding. lets say i lift the chains (on both hangers) and clip my PAS or whatever under it. then i untie, thread through the chains (to clean the anchor) and setup my ATC. now, when i transfer my weight to the rope (releasing the PAS), the chain will be weighted, trapping my biners between the chain and the hanger.... this is exactly what i want to avoid....
and on the area we climb, its a private property where noone is allowed except climbers. no birdwatchers, hikers, etc. and the cliffs are not too close to the ranch's house.... so the thief is either another climber, or the ranchers looking for free chain for the back of their trucks....
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summerprophet
May 19, 2010, 9:32 PM
Post #34 of 60
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Ahhhh,
I am understanding your confusion. You are talking about threading it for a rappel while temporarily anchoring yourself, while I am refering to leaving a toprope setup in place (or multipitch anchor).
Temporarilly securing yourself at the top of a climb after completing it is a minor thing. You are only dealing with body weight loads, not fall forces, so any reasonable point in the chain or the hanger is fine.
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shu2kill
May 19, 2010, 9:41 PM
Post #35 of 60
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summerprophet wrote: Ahhhh, I am understanding your confusion. You are talking about threading it for a rappel while temporarily anchoring yourself, while I am refering to leaving a toprope setup in place (or multipitch anchor). Temporarilly securing yourself at the top of a climb after completing it is a minor thing. You are only dealing with body weight loads, not fall forces, so any reasonable point in the chain or the hanger is fine.
yes i was talking primarily about cleaning anchors on single pitch routes. in my mind, top rope anchors would be set using quickdraws or slings secured with biners either to the hanger under the chain, or to the last link on the long chains.... but to clean the anchor, i want to avoid pinching gear....
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hafilax
May 19, 2010, 9:42 PM
Post #36 of 60
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shu2kill wrote: hafilax wrote: shu2kill wrote: hafilax wrote: Connecting to the ends of the chains would set up a pretty large angle that wouldn't be desirable for a lead anchor but is insignificant for rappelling. what do you mean?? in my understanding, conecting the 2 smaller tails with the rope would create the ADT. but those are to be used to anchor yourself, and the rope is threaded through the loner tails, which are set more or less equalized under the hangers.... The common usage of American Death Triangle is a single piece of webbing passed through 2 bolts and tied. The single strand coming out below the biners is used to anchor with making for a non-redundant setup with larger than necessary forces on the bolts. Like this: [image]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ejAk42p7jdY/SW9qapR4oZI/AAAAAAAACzU/J0lz9b398Do/s400/Death+Triangle.jpg[/image] A quick glance at your photos made it look to me like the chains were on the short side making for a large angle to the bolts. No big deal in the grand scheme of things IMO. I'm perfectly comfortable rappelling off of rap bolts with no equalization as long as the bolts seem solid. thanx, thats what i also understand as the ADT. so, threading the rope through the smaller tails would create it.... on another thing, have you seen FIXE double ring anchors?? they recommend you to put them at the same height. wouldnt this create the same forces as the ADT??? personally i prefer them to have some extension so they equalize and pull mostly downwards and not also to the inside of the triangle.....
The danger of the ADT is in catching lead falls onto the anchor. That and people would often thread the rope directly over the sling on rappel destroying the sling in the process of pulling the rope due to the heat.
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shu2kill
May 19, 2010, 9:47 PM
Post #37 of 60
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hafilax wrote: The forces involved in rappelling are insignificant compared to the strength of the bolts. Equalizing bolts for rappelling is not necessary. The danger of the ADT is in catching lead falls onto the anchor. That and people would often thread the rope directly over the sling on rappel destroying the sling in the process of pulling the rope due to the heat.
how do you catch a lead fall onto the anchor?? this could only be possible on multipitch where the belayer is anchored to the ADT, right??
OFF TOPIC>>> i had never thought about threading the rope through the sling to rappel, until last weekend, when i met some new climbers. they told me that they once did that, but they didnt even rappel, the climber got lowered, and the sling broke when the climber was about 4 meters from the ground. he broke his arm in 4 pieces... at least it was 4 mt from the ground and not 4 meters from the anchor....
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hafilax
May 19, 2010, 9:57 PM
Post #38 of 60
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shu2kill wrote: hafilax wrote: The forces involved in rappelling are insignificant compared to the strength of the bolts. Equalizing bolts for rappelling is not necessary. The danger of the ADT is in catching lead falls onto the anchor. That and people would often thread the rope directly over the sling on rappel destroying the sling in the process of pulling the rope due to the heat. how do you catch a lead fall onto the anchor?? this could only be possible on multipitch where the belayer is anchored to the ADT, right?? OFF TOPIC>>> i had never thought about threading the rope through the sling to rappel, until last weekend, when i met some new climbers. they told me that they once did that, but they didnt even rappel, the climber got lowered, and the sling broke when the climber was about 4 meters from the ground. he broke his arm in 4 pieces... at least it was 4 mt from the ground and not 4 meters from the anchor....
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redlude97
May 19, 2010, 10:16 PM
Post #39 of 60
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shu2kill wrote: i have one of this, trango neoclassic, that i use for my grigri [image]http://s7ondemand1.scene7.com/is/image/MoosejawMB/10090649x1045076_zm?$product325$[/image] and the ones in the pictures are 2 of the same, but the previous model, which i think is slightly skinnier... i also have 2 of these: [image]http://s7ondemand1.scene7.com/is/image/MoosejawMB/PAAAIAGOHOBLBLAI_zm?$product325$[/image] the ones im using are the ones i have found fit best on chains, from what i have, which is not much...
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socalclimber
May 19, 2010, 10:58 PM
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shu2kill wrote: socalclimber wrote: shu2kill wrote: socalclimber wrote: This is probably ok, my bigger concern is the second photo. That bolt on the left is a bit to close to that crack for my liking. I don't know the area, but that rock looks friable to me. Again, I'm not seeing this in person, but I'm not real sure that one bolt is all that good. Can anybody comment on this? well, the rock is not the hardest one. and as you can see in the same pic, i hammered several places farther away from the edge, but the rock sounded like hollow. i noticed i was going to bolt it close to the edge, but it was either there, or in the rock that didnt sound good. im using 1/2" bolts, and i was told to leave at least 10X diameter of the bolt from any rock's imperfection. i think the edge is about 5" from the hole, barely at 10Xdiameter. i didnt measure, just estimated.... Yeah, I understand the hollow part. Keep an eye on the left bolt. I prefer a foot distance from cracks or other "imperfections" on rock like that, but hey, if it's all you could get, so be it. Another question, would there have been any other place either lower or higher that the bolts could have been placed? thanx, ill keep an eye on it and relocate it if necessary.... the original anchors were about 6 feet higher, in a place easily accesible by walking. so i rappeled from them trying to find a solid place to put new anchors where they couldnt be reached without a rope, and suddenly i was at the last hanger. so i thought that would be a good place to set the anchor, but that was the only part hard enough to drill. the other solid area was like 2 feet above it, so it would require a very long chain....
So, I'm a little confused. What was wrong with the original setup being where it was?
(This post was edited by socalclimber on May 19, 2010, 10:59 PM)
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shu2kill
May 19, 2010, 11:58 PM
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socalclimber wrote: So, I'm a little confused. What was wrong with the original setup being where it was?
well, heres the original set of anchors as i found them this sunday:
maybe its not clear, but you can see the ground to the left. the anchors are in the top of the rock, in a completely horizontal face. you can walk and step in them without a problem....
now the story: those hangers used to have long chains hanging from them, about 3 feet long each. but, about 5 weeks ago, some friends went there and they found out the chains were gone. so one of them put a quicklink on one hanger, girth hitched the other one with a 7mm cord, and passed the loop through the quicklink so it would be attached to both hangers.... not optimal, but better than rappeling off one hanger...
the weekend before last one, i went there and saw the quicklink and cord. so i took mental note to next time bring chain to fix the anchor. i decided to bring 2 small pieces, so it would be uselesss for everyone but climbers and hopefully people would leave it there. BTW noone has anything to do there, its private property and only climbers are allowed....
anyways, this sunday when i arrived, i found out the anchors as they are in the picture. someone had stolen the quicklink and cord.... i dont know why, with what purpose, but they were gone... so i decided to lower the anchors, to prevent someone from stealing things again.... as you see, those hangers were placed in a bad spot. you cant see it from the pic, but there is another ledge below the edge, where the rope rubs badly if you get lowered.... everybody knew you had to rappel off that route, but since some people do not know how to do it, they wouldnt climb it... setting up top ropes was also a PITA, as you had to extend the original chains about 10 feet to avoid the ledge....
so thats why i relocated the anchors to a better place. i know i modified the route, but so far all the locals that have seen the pics agree it was a good thing, specially since it will hopefully prevent fixed gear from being removed by nonclimbers (the owners of the property)...
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socalclimber
May 20, 2010, 12:05 AM
Post #42 of 60
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Well, that all seems to make sense.
Thanks.
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shu2kill
May 20, 2010, 12:09 AM
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socalclimber wrote: Well, that all seems to make sense. Thanks.
you are welcomed =)
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guangzhou
May 20, 2010, 1:32 AM
Post #44 of 60
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When i place belay chains, I don't use a quick link anymore. I now use a connector that is more permanent.
Can't find a photo of the one I use, but a bit like this.
Link a screw link, I place it on the anchor and connect the chain to it. Unlike the quick-link, this piece is hammered or clamp shut. I prep them at home. This mean you can't remove the chain or connector. (You can cut it or pry it open, but not easy.)
Works well for me. My next trip to the cliff, I snap a couple of photos to post.
Eman
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rightarmbad
May 20, 2010, 4:22 AM
Post #45 of 60
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If you can walk into the anchors, why do you need any chains?
Clean anchors, walk off.
Maybe somebody has removed them because they are unnecessary and unsightly?
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shu2kill
May 20, 2010, 1:07 PM
Post #46 of 60
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rightarmbad wrote: If you can walk into the anchors, why do you need any chains? Clean anchors, walk off. Maybe somebody has removed them because they are unnecessary and unsightly?
well, here we are not used to top outs, we prefer to use the rope to return to where we started.... cultural thing i guess....
and no, they were not removed because they were unnecessary and unsightly, since you cannot see them unless you are at the top of the cliff, and as i said earlier several times, noone is allowed there except climbers and the owners of the place. and the owners do not go to that part of the ranch... unless they want free chain i guess...
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shu2kill
May 20, 2010, 1:16 PM
Post #47 of 60
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guangzhou wrote: When i place belay chains, I don't use a quick link anymore. I now use a connector that is more permanent. Can't find a photo of the one I use, but a bit like this. [image]http://kmsinc.thomasnet.com/Asset/660.jpg[/image] Link a screw link, I place it on the anchor and connect the chain to it. Unlike the quick-link, this piece is hammered or clamp shut. I prep them at home. This mean you can't remove the chain or connector. (You can cut it or pry it open, but not easy.) Works well for me. My next trip to the cliff, I snap a couple of photos to post. Eman
i have seen those at hardware stores, but since i havent seen them at any route, and i havent used them, i didnt know if they would work or what the locals would say about them.... i thought they would work since they wouldnt even have to hold a fall, but i dont know what others would say.....
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shockabuku
May 20, 2010, 7:04 PM
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I see those all over the place. I don't like them, but they work.
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guangzhou
May 21, 2010, 2:02 AM
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shockabuku wrote: I see those all over the place. I don't like them, but they work.
What is it you don't like about them? Just curious, nothing more.
In South East Asia, if I use a quick link, the chain is gone within a week.
Do you bolt routes? Again, just curious. If so, what do you use.
My absolute favorite for belay stations is Rap Hangers. Prevents people from top-roping directly on the bolts.
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shockabuku
May 21, 2010, 2:52 AM
Post #50 of 60
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guangzhou wrote: shockabuku wrote: I see those all over the place. I don't like them, but they work. What is it you don't like about them? Just curious, nothing more. In South East Asia, if I use a quick link, the chain is gone within a week. Do you bolt routes? Again, just curious. If so, what do you use. My absolute favorite for belay stations is Rap Hangers. Prevents people from top-roping directly on the bolts.
They are aesthetically unpleasing. Something about the fact that the gap never quite closes.
But no, I don't bolt routes so my opinion is nothing other than that.
I often wonder why I don't see more of the rap hangers. I guess maybe they're less desirable in financially unconstrained sport climbing areas. I suppose I used to see more when I was trad climbing more.
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