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robdotcalm
Oct 11, 2010, 4:30 PM
Post #26 of 41
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rightarmbad wrote: If it is a factor 1 fall, there is no way he can fall down, he will be lifted for sure. If they were a beginner belayer, then I may be worried, but if experienced I would have no problem with their stance. An experienced belayer would simply step onto the wall as they were lifted.
The mechanics of this particular situation will not work that way. As you can see, the rope is running at an approximately 45° angle. Hence, the force on the belayer generated by the leader falling will be equally divided between upward and horizontal. As a result, the belayer will slam into the wall from an FF1. His experience as a belayer does not overcome the principles of mechanics.
The climb in question is a slab route with some cracks. Hence, the belayer should keep the fall as short as possible. I would have thought it unnecessary to mention the following, but in view of some of the comments made in this thread, note that this is the opposite, say, of belaying on an overhanging sport climb where the lifting of the belayer often benefits the falling climber.
Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus
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curt
Oct 11, 2010, 5:41 PM
Post #27 of 41
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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whipper wrote: jt512 wrote: petsfed wrote: whipper wrote: robdotcalm wrote: Whipper wrote: Something about his prescience and that he’s been climbing for 19 years. Good luck dude. We all need it, but you, perhaps, a bit more so than most. Cheers, Rob.calm Up yours rob.douche. Not all of us a safety nazis that have to critique every ones 3 point, serene anchors. I grantee that you would not like climbing with me, because I am not scared, just as I would not like climbing with you because you are. Any one ever noticed that scared and weak tend to go hand in hand? Don't get me wrong, Rob and I have different approaches to risk management, but that was just uncalled for. If better options are available, and falling off of your belay stance endangers both climbers (as it typically does), then maybe you need to rethink your approach. It's pretty clear that thinking (re- or otherwise) isn't whipper's forte. Jay Thats actually funny, and probably how I come across or sure.
No, you actually come across as a complete asshole. Ignorance alone doesn't adequately explain your behavior.
Curt
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Factor2
Oct 11, 2010, 9:03 PM
Post #28 of 41
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robdotcalm wrote: rightarmbad wrote: If it is a factor 1 fall, there is no way he can fall down, he will be lifted for sure. If they were a beginner belayer, then I may be worried, but if experienced I would have no problem with their stance. An experienced belayer would simply step onto the wall as they were lifted. The mechanics of this particular situation will not work that way. As you can see, the rope is running at an approximately 45° angle. Hence, the force on the belayer generated by the leader falling will be equally divided between upward and horizontal. As a result, the belayer will slam into the wall from an FF1. His experience as a belayer does not overcome the principles of mechanics. The climb in question is a slab route with some cracks. Hence, the belayer should keep the fall as short as possible. I would have thought it unnecessary to mention the following, but in view of some of the comments made in this thread, note that this is the opposite, say, of belaying on an overhanging sport climb where the lifting of the belayer often benefits the falling climber. Gratias et valete bene! RobertusPunctumPacificus
It doesn't look anywhere close to 45 degrees....
And I'm not sure how most people belay, but when I catch a fall, I don't go completely limp and fall face first into whatever is in front of me. Generally I use my motor functions and stop myself from smashing into things.
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robdotcalm
Oct 11, 2010, 11:27 PM
Post #29 of 41
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Factor2 wrote: It doesn't look anywhere close to 45 degrees.... And I'm not sure how most people belay, but when I catch a fall, I don't go completely limp and fall face first into whatever is in front of me. Generally I use my motor functions and stop myself from smashing into things.
I would suggest an experiment to be done, preferably in a climbing gym. Belay a lead climber and stand on a tall chair at least 6 feet from the wall (be sure to have somebody backing you up on belay). After the climber gets past the second bolt he (she) is to deliberately fall at some point. See what happens.
If you do the experiment, I’d be interested in hearing the results.
Even if the angle of the rope is steeper than 45°, a fall from the place indicated in the picture I posted would still involve a strong horizontal component. Neglecting that while belaying unattached on a high point is taking unnecessary risks to belayer and climber.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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rightarmbad
Oct 12, 2010, 9:41 AM
Post #30 of 41
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From looking at the first photo, the wall is easily within reach of a step as you are lifted.
I know of several belays that are very similar to that.
No pain has ever been dished out.
Belayers will often step back that far from the wall just to keep visual on the climber.
Storm in a teacup.
A beginner, inattentive belayer may strike problems, but if your the leader, why would you ever place them in that situation?
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j_ung
Oct 12, 2010, 1:21 PM
Post #32 of 41
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Now this picture on the other hand; very dangerous for the belayer. If the climber falls and lives... he's definitely going to kill his partner.
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IsayAutumn
Oct 12, 2010, 2:30 PM
Post #33 of 41
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j_ung wrote: robdotcalm wrote: [image]http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy217/RobDotCalm/Old%20Folks%20Wall/belaystance.jpg[/image] This is more a critique of the photo than of your points regarding safety... there's just not enough info in it for me to feel comfortable commenting about the stance one way or another.
I agree with J_ung. Rob, the vague photo tells us very little. Also, who cares?
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airscape
Oct 21, 2010, 9:58 AM
Post #34 of 41
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Registered: Feb 26, 2001
Posts: 4240
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el_layclimber wrote: Christ, what an asshole. I am sure if you had just stuck around long enough you would have gotten the picture of him spontaneously combusting. I bet he lifts weights and eats steak too, what a fucking tool. Probably doesn't stick clip, or maybe he does. Fucking Nazi probably uses a cordlette and a daisy chain at the same time. Either way I hate him. I bet his shoes are too tight, and his pants aren't cool, and he has campfires. Probably just took off his beanie and put on a shirt for that photo, poser. I bet he either sport or trad climbs, depending on what I hate most. Good thing you got on the internets to warn all of us about where to stand. Someone should bolt that boulder and make it safe.
Eating steak was uncalled for.
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bill413
Oct 21, 2010, 12:47 PM
Post #35 of 41
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Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
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airscape wrote: el_layclimber wrote: Christ, what an asshole. I am sure if you had just stuck around long enough you would have gotten the picture of him spontaneously combusting. I bet he lifts weights and eats steak too, what a fucking tool. Probably doesn't stick clip, or maybe he does. Fucking Nazi probably uses a cordlette and a daisy chain at the same time. Either way I hate him. I bet his shoes are too tight, and his pants aren't cool, and he has campfires. Probably just took off his beanie and put on a shirt for that photo, poser. I bet he either sport or trad climbs, depending on what I hate most. Good thing you got on the internets to warn all of us about where to stand. Someone should bolt that boulder and make it safe. Eating steak was uncalled for.
Seems he has lots of issues.
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airscape
Oct 22, 2010, 6:34 AM
Post #37 of 41
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Registered: Feb 26, 2001
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spikeddem wrote: j_ung wrote: Now this picture on the other hand; very dangerous for the belayer. If the climber falls and lives... he's definitely going to kill his partner. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/5/459115-work-1920wcary16.jpg[/image] This picture feels like it was directed by Majid. I have absolutely no clue as to what is going on in it. Could you (or anyone else) help me out a bit?
It seems the guy with the red rope is climbing a route with a very large crashpad with a very unique granite colouration.
Granite colouration is the new black.
he also seems to have some neutral observers a few meters from the face.
The guy on the right seems to be facinated by a blue rope hanging from the face.
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Toast_in_the_Machine
Oct 22, 2010, 12:32 PM
Post #38 of 41
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Registered: Sep 12, 2008
Posts: 5208
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spikeddem wrote: j_ung wrote: Now this picture on the other hand; very dangerous for the belayer. If the climber falls and lives... he's definitely going to kill his partner. This picture feels like it was directed by Majid. I have absolutely no clue as to what is going on in it. Could you (or anyone else) help me out a bit?
From the photo it looks like there is some fantastic hair stylin' going on by the climber. Guessing by the amount of slack in the rope, someone's 'do is going to get a little windblown treatment look. Which, while 70's look is hot now , it would not go with that fab blue shirt. Bad hair causes people to go all crazy and kill people.
It is all about the hair.
And for proof:
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oneballjay
Oct 22, 2010, 8:41 PM
Post #39 of 41
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Registered: Oct 2, 2001
Posts: 98
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So you are saying the more 70ish the hair style, the less belay skill someone has. Or
Y=-1(X)+10
If
X = 70ish the hairstyle and is a non-negative number
Y = Belay skill and non-negative number
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dingus
Oct 22, 2010, 8:53 PM
Post #40 of 41
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
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Say are you just another oneballjay or are you THE oneballjay?
DMT
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bill413
Oct 23, 2010, 12:00 AM
Post #41 of 41
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Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
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oneballjay wrote: So you are saying the more 70ish the hair style, the less belay skill someone has. Or Y=-1(X)+10 If X = 70ish the hairstyle and is a non-negative number Y = Belay skill and non-negative number
You assume it's linear?
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