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kman154
Nov 20, 2010, 6:12 PM
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this is my first post to this forum. Sorry for the intrusion.
what is the best what for three climbers to climb a large multi pitch wall and to be efficient.
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notapplicable
Nov 20, 2010, 6:13 PM
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kman154 wrote: this is my first post to this forum. Sorry for the intrusion. what is the best what for three climbers to climb a large multi pitch wall and to be efficient.
YGD!
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jcrew
Nov 20, 2010, 6:25 PM
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kman154 wrote: what is the best what for three climbers to climb a large multi pitch wall and to be efficient.
3 guys, 2 ropes......climbers #1 and #3 swing leads, while climber #2 always goes second and helps manage the ropes for climbers 1 and 3.
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dugl33
Nov 20, 2010, 10:49 PM
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With a double rope system the leader can belay two followers (directly off the anchor, with a guide atc, for example) at the same time. The followers should maintain about 20 feet of separation. This is only recommended for ropes rated as doubles.
Or, as already described with 2 standard ropes, climber #2 follows and cleans (although maybe clips the tail rope into a few pieces). Climber #2 can reorganize the rack while climber #3 climbs belayed by climber #1. Or, occasionally its easier to leave the third below at a lower pitch while the next pitch is led.
Another option is the third climber can self belay up a fixed line with a minitraxion or grigri or jug the pitch.
As you can see, many possible variations. So long as everyone is helping with organization and keeping things moving a team of three can move pretty quick. If one climber is a total noob keep them in the middle, letting them clean what is easy to grab, and clipping the tail rope into any gear that's tough to clean or as needed to protect any traverses.
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socalclimber
Nov 20, 2010, 11:01 PM
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With three climbers, two better be competent, otherwise it's gonna be a cluster fuck. If only one is competent, than it's kinda like having a guide.
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vinnie83
Nov 21, 2010, 1:14 AM
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Kman,
Belay the 2nd and 3rd climbers at the same time using ATC guide, reverso, or gigi using two ropes in the auto-blocking configuration. If you've got it down this is only slightly slower than climbing in a group of two. Using standard single ropes is fine, as long as you are leading on one and trailing the other one, but pulling two standard ropes through a belay device can be more work that you would expect. I usually prefer to lead in blocks, but its still possible to swing leads.
Unless you're climbing a route with a lot of aiding and hauling, having the climbers go one at a time is not in any way efficient and should be avoided on longer routes, especially if its a popular route.
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TheRucat
Nov 21, 2010, 2:22 AM
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kman154 wrote: this is my first post to this forum. Sorry for the intrusion.
Sorry for the intrusion? It's your first day here and you just established yourself as a bitch. My advice; don't apologize.
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qwert
Nov 21, 2010, 9:57 AM
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socalclimber wrote: With three climbers, two better be competent, otherwise it's gonna be a cluster fuck. If only one is competent, than it's kinda like having a guide.
And of course the oblligatory:
STFU n00b!
U R gonna dye!
take a course!
hire a guide!
read a book!
go with someone experienced!
you really shouldnt have to ask such questions on the internet 
and so on ...
Anyways, if you know what you are doing, and simply look for a few suggestions on how to probably do it better, here is a few suggestions:
If only one is competent: The best one leads all pitches. One of the followers belays the leader, whereas the other one has to keep the ropes from tangling. Its not the fastest way to climb, but since you have someone to take care of the rope tangling issue that seems to always occur when not switching leads, it shouldnt be to slow either.
If you got three fairly competent folks, here is what i do:
switch leads!
Leader belays both followers.
First follower to arrive at the belay ties in an continues belaying the second follower, so that the previous leader can untie one rope.
When both followers are at the belay, the one following also the next pitch ties into the rope the previous leader untied and then ties that rope into the belay, and unties the rope he followed on.
this rope then goes to the next leader, who ties in, and is ready to go.
That may sound complicated, but for me/us it worked much better than block leading.
qwert
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rgold
Nov 21, 2010, 5:03 PM
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I use a slightly different system than Qwert's.
Here's the system. It assumes at least two leaders (I've usually done this with all three party members taking turns leading) and is faster and more efficient than leading in blocks in my opinion.
Everyone should have installed tethers so that when followers arrive at the belay they can immediately go off belay.
When the current leader reaches the belay, they anchor with the rope that belays the follower who will be leading the next pitch (hereafter the "first follower"). The rope to the second follower is clipped to a convenient anchor point, the leader unties from that rope, and then belays both followers.
Having the second follower's rope untied this way means that when the first follower arrives at the stance, they can clip in with their tether, going immediately off belay so that there is no interruption in belaying the second follower, tie into the anchored rope the leader has untied, and so be ready to lead the next pitch (in terms of ropes) without adding a moment's delay to the changeover.
The first follower should remove all gear except for essential directionals for the second follower, so that the first follower can busy themselves racking up for their upcoming lead while the second follower is finishing the pitch.
When the second follower arrives, clips in, and passes over the remaining gear (ideally just a piece or two) to the new leader. The current belayer will have to reset the second follower's rope in the belay device in order to have the correct end for belaying the new leader.
The second follower's job is then to manage the rope pile while the current belayer belays the new leader. Some management will be needed, because one of the new leader's ropes will be coming off the bottom of the pile.
I've found that rope management is significantly improved by flaking ropes over a Metolius rope hook, which allows slack to be lifted off the hook rather than being pulled out of a pile or a system of loops flaked over a tie-in. The second follower-rope manager can lift loops of slack off the hook from both the top and the bottom of the pile without creating tangles and without requiring the party to restack the ropes.
By the way, I think the rope hook is the way to manage double ropes on multipitch routes for two-person parties as well. I've done tons of pitches this way without ever having even a momentary delay because of tangling.
Leaders used to climbing with double ropes will have to modify their clipping strategies when climbing with two followers in order to make sure that both followers are appropriately protected on wandering pitches. Sometimes, both ropes will have to be clipped to a single anchor point, something one almost never does with doubles in two-person parties. For these clips I usually use a quickdraw for one rope and a full-length sling for the other rope.
The need to insure that both followers have a good belay means that sometimes some of the advantages of double ropes may be mitigated.
With this system dialed and with all party members competent, three can usually climb nearly as fast as two.
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qwert
Nov 22, 2010, 9:00 AM
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rgold wrote: When the current leader reaches the belay, they anchor with the rope that belays the follower who will be leading the next pitch (hereafter the "first follower"). The rope to the second follower is clipped to a convenient anchor point, the leader unties from that rope, and then belays both followers. Having the second follower's rope untied this way means that when the first follower arrives at the stance, they can clip in with their tether, going immediately off belay so that there is no interruption in belaying the second follower, tie into the anchored rope the leader has untied, and so be ready to lead the next pitch (in terms of ropes) without adding a moment's delay to the changeover.
so the rope he already had will be piled "the right way", whereas the other one will be piled "the wrong way".
I dont really see where there is a speed difference to simply leading in blocks, since you have to untangle anyways, or to "my system" where you also have to retie.
Dont get me wrong, i am not saying that what you are doing is "wrong", i just dont see the benefits. Its probably simply about what one is used to?
In reply to: Leaders used to climbing with double ropes will have to modify their clipping strategies when climbing with two followers in order to make sure that both followers are appropriately protected on wandering pitches. Sometimes, both ropes will have to be clipped to a single anchor point, something one almost never does with doubles in two-person parties. For these clips I usually use a quickdraw for one rope and a full-length sling for the other rope.  )
The need to insure that both followers have a good belay means that sometimes some of the advantages of double ropes may be mitigated.
qwert
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rgold
Nov 22, 2010, 1:11 PM
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qwert wrote: So if i understand you correctly, the "new leader" is going to climb with the rope he followed on, plus on of the ropes from the previous leader? so the rope he already had will be piled "the right way", whereas the other one will be piled "the wrong way".
Yes.
qwert wrote: I dont really see where there is a speed difference to simply leading in blocks, since you have to untangle anyways, or to "my system" where you also have to retie.
If you use the rope hook and the second follower manages the rope, you don't have to re-pile, and the re-tying is done while other activities are still in progress, so has no "cost" in climbing time. Whether the time savings add up to anything is, as you say, debatable. What matters is that you have a well-coordinated system, otherwise, it is indeed possible to waste a lot of time in changeovers and fusterclucks.
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possum2082
Nov 22, 2010, 6:18 PM
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sounds like your partners are a couple of jerks.
my advise: get rid of 'em!
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kman154
Nov 22, 2010, 8:28 PM
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possum2082 wrote: sounds like your partners are a couple of jerks. my advise: get rid of 'em!
out of all of this great advise, which I am very thankful, this is the best i've heard and will get right on it.
thanks everyone
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markcarlson
Nov 22, 2010, 9:12 PM
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If possible, get all three together for a practice day. Do a shorter route (or just a few pitches of a longer route,) and get all the kinks worked out. This way you can identify and solve problems before getting on a more committing route. For best results, have your practice day (or days) close to the big event so it is fresh in your minds.
Make sure to include all the types of terrain you will be encountering. If your route has several pitches worth of 4th class, make sure everyone agrees ahead of time how it will be handled. Make alternative plans that are also agreed upon ahead of time.
If your route has a long approach and/or descent, you can try to work that into your practice day. Doing an approach and descent in the dark is much easier if you've done it before.
The practice day will help in making plans for who will climb first, second, and third for each pitch. Do this ahead of time to prevent time consuming arguments 2/3 of the way up your route.
Other things that come to mind:
Make sure everyone is keeping an eye on the weather (third person comes in handy here!)
Agree ahead of time on bail options: Turnaround times, bail down the route or another route, wind/rockfall/rain/hail/lightning.
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potreroed
Nov 22, 2010, 10:08 PM
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The most efficient way I've found for a team of three on a long route is that 2 swing leads and fix a line for the 3rd who self belays with a soloist.
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