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Vegasclimber10
Dec 11, 2010, 10:05 AM
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Been noticing this a lot lately....
People, do you really need little bits of damned cord so bad that you have to jack them off of climbs? I understand if they are ratty or sun rotted, etc. But come on.
A friend of mine and I were up Solar Slab recently. I noticed that one of the rap stations had been pared down to a single cord and rings. Last time I saw it, about a month before, there was a backup line on it, in perfect shape. What the hell use is a sling shorter then an arm length?
A couple of the rap rings were getting pretty thin, so we backed them up with quick links. And checked the tree belay to make sure that cord was in good shape as well, which it was.
Went up there today and the quick links, tree belay slings, and the new backup sling at the rap station were all gone. I really don't see why people pull this stuff off and create a potential hazard by doing so.
Grrr. Rant over.
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rightarmbad
Dec 11, 2010, 1:26 PM
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What is the hazard they create?
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sp115
Dec 11, 2010, 4:44 PM
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rightarmbad wrote: What is the hazard they create?
Not to be dogmatic about it, but I prefer having a good backup over a single piece of webbing.
Think about it another way, how did pulling the backup improve anything (provided it wasn't a giant tatty mess)?
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moose_droppings
Dec 11, 2010, 4:48 PM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote: Been noticing this a lot lately.... People, do you really need little bits of damned cord so bad that you have to jack them off of climbs? I understand if they are ratty or sun rotted, etc. But come on. A friend of mine and I were up Solar Slab recently. I noticed that one of the rap stations had been pared down to a single cord and rings. Last time I saw it, about a month before, there was a backup line on it, in perfect shape. What the hell use is a sling shorter then an arm length? A couple of the rap rings were getting pretty thin, so we backed them up with quick links. And checked the tree belay to make sure that cord was in good shape as well, which it was. Went up there today and the quick links, tree belay slings, and the new backup sling at the rap station were all gone. I really don't see why people pull this stuff off and create a potential hazard by doing so. Grrr. Rant over.
What did they use to rap off of?
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desertdude420
Dec 11, 2010, 4:48 PM
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I get pissed when people just throw more and more slings/rings onto crappy belays. They usually get clogged with crap. That is more dangerous IMHO than having one or two simple and clean bomber slings.
But I know what you are talking about. Climbers "booty" the oddest things!!
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caughtinside
Dec 11, 2010, 4:48 PM
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People like to take stuff, plain and simple. I never figured out why people take stuff from anchors though. Especially quick links.
the cord can go either way. Some have the philosophy that one good piece of cord is all you need and will chop the rest in the name of cleaning things up. I favor this approach, although I always leave 2 strands when cleaning up an anchor.
IMO though, there is no excuse to be leaving flimsy hollow aluminum rap rings on rap stations that see a lot of action.
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chadnsc
Dec 11, 2010, 8:43 PM
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caughtinside wrote: People like to take stuff, plain and simple. I never figured out why people take stuff from anchors though. Especially quick links. the cord can go either way. Some have the philosophy that one good piece of cord is all you need and will chop the rest in the name of cleaning things up. I favor this approach, although I always leave 2 strands when cleaning up an anchor. IMO though, there is no excuse to be leaving flimsy hollow aluminum rap rings on rap stations that see a lot of action.
+1 I have to agree with you caught.
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Colinhoglund
Dec 11, 2010, 8:51 PM
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caughtinside wrote: People like to take stuff, plain and simple. I never figured out why people take stuff from anchors though. Especially quick links. the cord can go either way. Some have the philosophy that one good piece of cord is all you need and will chop the rest in the name of cleaning things up. I favor this approach, although I always leave 2 strands when cleaning up an anchor. IMO though, there is no excuse to be leaving flimsy hollow aluminum rap rings on rap stations that see a lot of action.
2+ Cut off the crap and leave the best two. Or take a sling, leave a sling. Especially for ice climbing, do we really need 50 freeking threads on the top of every pitch?
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Vegasclimber10
Dec 11, 2010, 10:40 PM
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rightarmbad wrote: What is the hazard they create?
The hazard they create, is when they leave a single cord. You should never rely on a single piece on rap.
I totally agree with everyone about the sling nests that are 10 years old, cut that crap away and leave 2 slings in good shape. Some people I know date their slings when they leave them....also not a bad habit.
I can also see replacing some bright colored slings with slings colored to blend in with the rock.
But as far as the quick links went, that really cheesed me off. You make something safer and some yahoo decides that they need quick links so bad that they would rather endanger others :-|
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moose_droppings
Dec 11, 2010, 11:04 PM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote: But as far as the quick links went, that really cheesed me off. You make something safer and some yahoo decides that they need quick links so bad that they would rather endanger others :-|
Yep, no need to take good quick links.
But IMO, anyone without their own materiel for making a safe rap station endangered themselves.
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bill413
Dec 12, 2010, 12:31 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: But IMO, anyone without their own materiel for making a safe rap station endangered themselves.
I climb with material to safely make a single use rap station. I don't generally climb with material to make a public use rap station. (In other words, I don't generally carry quick links or rap rings - gave up that conceit quite a while back.)
But, how I deal with public stations vs. how I deal with non-public ones is different.
I see no need to steal material from stations unless it's truly unsafe, and then you should still leave a functioning, multiply usable place.
(This post was edited by bill413 on Dec 12, 2010, 12:32 AM)
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notapplicable
Dec 12, 2010, 1:24 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Vegasclimber10 wrote: But as far as the quick links went, that really cheesed me off. You make something safer and some yahoo decides that they need quick links so bad that they would rather endanger others :-| Yep, no need to take good quick links. But IMO, anyone without their own materiel for making a safe rap station endangered themselves.
Every climber carries slings and biners, what more do you need?
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vegastradguy
Dec 12, 2010, 4:49 AM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote: Went up there today and the quick links, tree belay slings, and the new backup sling at the rap station were all gone. I really don't see why people pull this stuff off and create a potential hazard by doing so.
tree belay? on solar slab? none that i can think of- if i saw a tree on that route that had slings, i'd have cut them off myself. Solar Slab has way too many stations as it is, it certainly doesnt need anymore.
with the exception of two stations (maybe three), there arent any slung stations on the entire route- its all rings or chains.
if you're talking about that threaded station in the gully's backup line- dude, that thing comes and goes all the time. some folks (like me) see no need for a backup and remove it (i dont, im too lazy- and i usually downclimb that section anyway, its only 4th class)- others like it and put it back- whatever makes you happy.
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moose_droppings
Dec 12, 2010, 4:49 AM
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Exactly, so how is someone else endangered?
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notapplicable
Dec 12, 2010, 5:44 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: Exactly, so how is someone else endangered?
No one is endangered.
Removing the entire station is certainly a dick move in most cases but not a dangerous one.
I must admit though, I am given pause by the fact that someone was able to remove an entire rap anchor but still descend the route. Was the anchor in question really a necessary anchor or one established in error by someone and used simply because it was there?
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vegastradguy
Dec 12, 2010, 6:02 AM
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notapplicable wrote: I must admit though, I am given pause by the fact that someone was able to remove an entire rap anchor but still descend the route. Was the anchor in question really a necessary anchor or one established in error by someone and used simply because it was there?
well, it is solar slab. you get a fast, competent party that feels sick at the sight of all the stations on that route (the FA did it without a single bolt, and now all stations are bolted, plus about 3 more intermediate stations for no apparent purpose)- they may have decided to do some maintenance on the route (like i do now and then), chopping the even more stations that show up and generally cleaning things up as they went, and then, like most fast parties, go up and over and take the nice, two or three easy rap descent through the bowls rather than rap the route.
im not entirely sure which station vegasclimber is talking about- if he'd care to enlighten us, i'd be happy to give more input. as i mentioned before, there are no tree belays on the route, so im unsure of where exactly he's talking about on the route.
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moose_droppings
Dec 12, 2010, 7:17 AM
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That was my 1st post.
How did they rap off?
I agree it's a dick move, but I think he's over playing it a bit.
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sbaclimber
Dec 12, 2010, 9:26 AM
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moose_droppings wrote: That was my 1st post. How did they rap off? 
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Vegasclimber10
Dec 12, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Ok, let me see if I can clear this up a bit.
For those that keep asking "What did they rap off of"
There is an intermediate rap station halfway up the 3rd pitch of the gully. It had two good cords on it. Someone removed one of the cords, leaving only a single cord to rap off of. There was no reason to remove the backup, it was new and in good shape. So, they rapped off the single remaining cord and took the other one with them.
I backed it up again with a new piece of pro cord, which was also taken by someone in the recent past, again leaving a single cord.
The tree I am speaking of, is at the top of the third pitch. I find it uncomfortable to belay off the chains there due to their location. So there was a nice belay sling on the tree there. This part of it certainly isnt a big deal, but still it was a single cord in good shape.
The rap rings, again at the top of the third pitch, are getting pretty worn. Due to the high amount of traffic, we set quick links there to help alleviate the damage being done to the rap rings. They were removed.
Some of us only have a single cord, and have to do the full 7 raps to get to the ground. Such is life,being a poor, and very low level, trad climber who is still working out their multipitch systems.
At the end of this, it was not about the specific route, as much as a question as to why, in general, I keep seeing people remove slings and links that are not a mess, not ratty, and are there to help protect others.
I totally respect vegastradguy's opinion in all things related to Red Rock, and always have. In the case of lower level climbers, it's just more of an issue then for others though. What's easy for you may not be easy for me or someone else.
I just dont understand why people remove these items in general. I think that maybe I wasn't clear enough about my specific issue, or perhaps I worded it badly.
Hopefully this clears things up enough.
(This post was edited by Vegasclimber10 on Dec 12, 2010, 12:35 PM)
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rightarmbad
Dec 12, 2010, 2:54 PM
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Maybe if you stop leaving unnecessary gear all over the cliff, you will be able to afford another 'chord'.
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vegastradguy
Dec 12, 2010, 3:58 PM
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ah, yeah, as i suspected the more i thought about it.
couple of thoughts.
1) that threaded station is a little spooky, but one cord is enough from a safety perspective, especially if its new. i've tried backing that thing up, but people just chop and take it- nothing to be done about it.
2) chop that tree belay. if you dont, i will- its totally unnecessary and you shouldnt belay there anyway. belay on the big ass ledge 10' further up. or, if you must, extend yourself off the bolts for belay.
3) next time you go up the gully, take a little bit of thread lock with you for the quicklinks. that should solve the problem. make sure to use the removable threadlock- you want to be able to replace those links when they wear out.
also, keep in mind that the route is also guided a fair bit and the guides tend to keep it in pretty good shape- this sounds like some guides doing light maintenance on the gully. i havent actually used the chains in question in a few years, so i cant comment on their condition, but if you used a wrench to tighten those links you left, its like as not a guide removed them, as they tend to be the only ones that carry wrenches on routes on a regular basis.
(This post was edited by vegastradguy on Dec 12, 2010, 3:59 PM)
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moose_droppings
Dec 12, 2010, 3:59 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: moose_droppings wrote: That was my 1st post. How did they rap off? Did you killfile vegastradguy? He has already given 2 possible scenarios...
My post asking this question was before VTG chimed in.
Try to keep up.
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vegastradguy
Dec 12, 2010, 4:04 PM
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Vegasclimber10 wrote: rightarmbad wrote: What is the hazard they create? The hazard they create, is when they leave a single cord. You should never rely on a single piece on rap.
actually, this isnt true. i can and do create single strand rap stations all the time and consider them absolutely safe. once they show a little wear, you add one more. i try to keep existing stations to two strands if im using existing stuff, but if i add a brand new strand, i'll chop all of the old ones.
In reply to: But as far as the quick links went, that really cheesed me off. You make something safer and some yahoo decides that they need quick links so bad that they would rather endanger others :-|
as i said before, its like as not someone didnt think the chains were that worn and took the links. a bit of a dick move without alot of forethought, but its so ridiculously common the only thing you can do is carry a wrench and a little removable threadlock to keep the real idiots from taking them, but if a guides up there with a wrench and he disagrees, those links are going away.
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sbaclimber
Dec 12, 2010, 4:49 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: sbaclimber wrote: moose_droppings wrote: That was my 1st post. How did they rap off? Did you killfile vegastradguy? He has already given 2 possible scenarios... My post asking this question was before VTG chimed in.
meh, never mind 
(This post was edited by sbaclimber on Dec 12, 2010, 4:57 PM)
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Vegasclimber10
Dec 12, 2010, 8:10 PM
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VTG, thanks for your input.
I have tried belaying further up the ledge, but I'm still having issues with rope drag due to n00b placement and that makes it a bit tough. I also tried extending off the chains but it's just an odd stance as you know.
The idea about the thread lock is a great one, I didn't even think about that, so thank you. I have to say that I disagree about a single cord, but that's just my personal opinion so I will keep adding a second cord in that situation and stop whining about it. I do agree that there shouldn't be any more then two however.
For the person that attempted to smack talk me about leaving gear all over the rock...nvm I'm not even going to bother. You climb your way, I climb mine.
As I said before, it's not so much this route in particular, I was simply using it as an example. It's that I notice people taking stuff for no apparent reason and it's both confusing and a little aggravating for me.
So thanks to all that have chimed in on my little rant and have a great weekend - I'm going climbing. It's been a fun little welcome back to RC.com after many years away.
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