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esander4
Feb 14, 2011, 4:14 AM
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Hopefully this question doesn't come out confusing. I apparently have the grammar of a kindergartener.
Would it be stupid or smart to double protect the first placement of a pitch/climb? In my mind I thought it might lessen the chance of the first piece of gear popping and the climber decking (since the first clip usually produces the biggest fall factor), but then I thought again and realized it might create an American Death Triangle in a fall (hopefully you can visualize how this happens, I can't really explain it very well) and because of the vector forces actually increase the chances of failing rock/gear.
Thoughts?
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Rudmin
Feb 14, 2011, 4:27 AM
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It would be impossible to increase the force that each piece is taking without some serious fubaring. At worst, you might have one piece take all of the load of a fall which is what normally happens anyways.
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dugl33
Feb 14, 2011, 4:30 AM
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esander4 wrote: Hopefully this question doesn't come out confusing. I apparently have the grammar of a kindergartener. Would it be stupid or smart to double protect the first placement of a pitch/climb? In my mind I thought it might lessen the chance of the first piece of gear popping and the climber decking (since the first clip usually produces the biggest fall factor), but then I thought again and realized it might create an American Death Triangle in a fall (hopefully you can visualize how this happens, I can't really explain it very well) and because of the vector forces actually increase the chances of failing rock/gear. Thoughts?
The only way you are going to create anything like an ADT is to have one piece of pro horizontal to the other, in which case you can just sling one or both pieces long enough and the problem goes away. If you're climbing on two ropes, clip one rope into one piece, the other rope into the other piece.
Never a bad idea to back yourself up if you might deck or ledge out, before a crux, etc., especially if you don't feel like the gear you set is bomber.
And if this is a troll, T1.
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moose_droppings
Feb 14, 2011, 4:38 AM
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Sometimes you can't belay right under the first piece and placing a second piece in opposition on the first piece is a good idea to protect from any outward pull. Also, it' doesn't hurt if you want to double it up for a downward pull if there's a crux move down low.
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rgold
Feb 14, 2011, 5:07 AM
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As usual, I think it depends. But if there is a hard move by that first piece and I think there's a decent chance I could fall on it, then I'm going to find a way to double up if at all possible., even if the single piece is pretty "bomber." Sometimes this involves downclimbing to place a piece lower than I had originally deemed necessary.
If the placements are close together, I'll often find some way to rig them together and use them as a single unit.
Since I almost always climb with double (half) ropes, two pieces more or less at the same level, even if widely separated, are no problem---one of the many advantages of double ropes.
When small gear has to protect critical situations, I'll try to double up if possible, whether or not it is the first protection point, because even "good" small gear has a probability of failure that is not insignificant.
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jeepnphreak
Feb 15, 2011, 5:50 PM
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ADK not likely.
but this is definitely a it depends situation.
If I'm getting up a bit high for my comfort and the placements are crappy I probably will drop in two pieces if they are less than ideal.
But if the first placement is a med to large cam or lager stopper that bomber, one piece of pro is fine. Besides that give me one more piece of gear for later in the pitch.
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A-Bowl
Feb 15, 2011, 6:00 PM
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The more cams between you and the ground/ledge the better. You're getting it... double up down low and keep cams close together towards the bottom till you're well off the ground then start spacing. This has the added benefit of lightening your load. You'll find with more experience that you can take huge falls safely if it is into the air... they actually feel softer than short ones... just always keep yourself off the ground/ledges. This is one reason why steep multipitch trad is so fun and safe.... no ground!
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camhead
Feb 15, 2011, 6:11 PM
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Everything that has been said is correct. I personally always try to place gear such that even if one piece pulls, I don't hit the ground. This may involve placing multidirectionals, pieces in more than one crack, closely-spaced gear, and even mini- equalized two or three piece anchors, all depending on the situation.
It's always a good rule of thumb to space gear closely as you're near the ground, and then gradually space it farther as you gain elevation.
A couple technical aspects to keep in mind (although I by no means am a hyper-analytical tech head when it comes to climbing):
-fall factors are greater when you're near the ground. A six foot fall when you're 20 feet up is going to put much more force on your gear than a 20 foot fall when you're 80 feet up.
-I read years ago (after Goran Kropp's fatal gear-pulling accident) that often, if you are placing gear close together, and one piece pulls, the next piece down may be hit with essentially a static force, since the rope has not had time to regain its stretch. Any nerds know if this is true?
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kachoong
Feb 15, 2011, 6:23 PM
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esander4 wrote: Hopefully this question doesn't come out confusing. I apparently have the grammar of a kindergartener. Would it be stupid or smart to double protect the first placement of a pitch/climb? In my mind I thought it might lessen the chance of the first piece of gear popping and the climber decking (since the first clip usually produces the biggest fall factor), but then I thought again and realized it might create an American Death Triangle in a fall (hopefully you can visualize how this happens, I can't really explain it very well) and because of the vector forces actually increase the chances of failing rock/gear. Thoughts?
Well, if you rig a sling to connect your two pieces, like in the right diagram below you will have an ADT. But you don't want to rig it that way. The correct way is on left.
As others have said, it depends. You may want to rig the two pieces separately, equalized, or in opposition for a variety of reasons; including to keep one piece in place or to create a safe downward pull using a horizontal.
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kachoong
Feb 15, 2011, 6:28 PM
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A-Bowl wrote: This is one reason why steep multipitch trad is so fun and safe.... no ground!
Huh? Not really a rule to climb by I reckon.
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esander4
Feb 15, 2011, 6:50 PM
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Don't think you caught the point of my OP
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esander4
Feb 15, 2011, 6:54 PM
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camhead wrote: -I read years ago (after Goran Kropp's fatal gear-pulling accident) that often, if you are placing gear close together, and one piece pulls, the next piece down may be hit with essentially a static force, since the rope has not had time to regain its stretch. Any nerds know if this is true?
Wouldn't it depend on how much the rope has already been stretched at the time the piece pulled? For example, if a rope has a stretch of 32% and it only stretched 23% of the way before the piece pulled, I'm guessing it would still create a dynamic force. But that's probably true if it has been completely stretched. I'm not completely sure, that's just my theory.
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esander4
Feb 15, 2011, 7:02 PM
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I wish I knew how to do animations and flash stuff, then this would be easier to explain.
I'm not necessarily talking about the connection of two pieces via a sling to create an ADT. I'm talking about the way a rope runs through the first two pieces of a pitch/climb, and in a fall creating ADT. It wouldn't create perfect triangle like in an anchor, but I was still curious if it would create the same forces as in an ADT. As has been previously said, it would be more prevalent in horizontals. And obviously for double rope climbing it doesn't really apply. But I climb on a single
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jt512
Feb 15, 2011, 7:40 PM
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camhead wrote: -I read years ago (after Goran Kropp's fatal gear-pulling accident) that often, if you are placing gear close together, and one piece pulls, the next piece down may be hit with essentially a static force, since the rope has not had time to regain its stretch. Any nerds know if this is true?
I think it's false. This question has come up before, and IIRC the engineers (Curt et al) provided convincing arguments, and possibly data, that showed that it was not the case. For one thing, when the first piece pulls, the rope begins to contract immediately—there is no delay—so additional energy absorbency is immediately added to the rope. Secondly, even if that did not occur, the second piece would not experience a "static" force; rather, it would experience a force–time curve similar to that which would be produced by a less elastic rope. Third, the first piece will have slowed down the climber, so that his kinetic energy when he hits the second piece will be less (or at least not greater) than when he hit the first piece, reducing the force the next piece feels.
At least that is my recollection of their arguments.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Feb 21, 2011, 2:46 AM)
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camhead
Feb 15, 2011, 7:45 PM
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jt512 wrote: camhead wrote: -I read years ago (after Goran Kropp's fatal gear-pulling accident) that often, if you are placing gear close together, and one piece pulls, the next piece down may be hit with essentially a static force, since the rope has not had time to regain its stretch. Any nerds know if this is true? I think it's false. This question has come up before, and IIRC the engineers (Curt et al) provided convincing arguments, and possibly data, that showed that it was not the case. For one thing, when the first piece pulls, the rope begins to contract immediately—there is no delay—so additional energy absorbency is immediately added to the rope. Secondly, even if that did not occur, the second piece would not experience a "static" force; rather, it would experience a force–time curve similar to that which would be produced by a less elastic rope. Third, the first piece will have slowed down the climber, so that his kinetic energy when he hits the second piece will be less less (or at least not greater) than when he hit the first piece, reducing the force the next piece feels. At least that is my recollection of their arguments. Jay
hmm, yeah, I think I remember going over this now.
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socalclimber
Feb 15, 2011, 8:24 PM
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I have a fairly simple rule I follow:
Two to stay off the deck.
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notapplicable
Feb 16, 2011, 4:05 AM
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I, personally, am a big fan of the DP.
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 16, 2011, 2:17 PM
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esander4 wrote: I wish I knew how to do animations and flash stuff, then this would be easier to explain. I'm not necessarily talking about the connection of two pieces via a sling to create an ADT. I'm talking about the way a rope runs through the first two pieces of a pitch/climb, and in a fall creating ADT. It wouldn't create perfect triangle like in an anchor, but I was still curious if it would create the same forces as in an ADT. As has been previously said, it would be more prevalent in horizontals. And obviously for double rope climbing it doesn't really apply. But I climb on a single
If you sling correctly, then this won't happen. If we are talking about two pieces in a horizontal, then you should be slinging them such that the rope continues upward in a straight line.
Josh
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blueeyedclimber
Feb 16, 2011, 3:42 PM
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notapplicable wrote: I, personally, am a big fan of the DP.
figures.
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Christopherlh84
Feb 17, 2011, 2:03 AM
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I think if you can double up on the first placement you should especially if you think there is fall potential.
I was up at stone mountain NC two months ago and one of my partners placed a .75 BD behind a flake on Dirty crack 10 feet up the placement looked to be great but she fell and the cam came out and she hit the deck. Luckily she walked away from it. That was the first time i have ever seen a cam come out in a fall so now i just back it up if i feel i need to do so.
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clymber
Feb 17, 2011, 11:39 AM
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they say that your first piece should be equalized for both the upward and downward pull...when you set most pieces in vertical cracks they are ment only for the downward pull depending on where your belayer is standing when your fall occurs there is a chance that they rope can cause the first piece to pull up causing the rest to zipper out. depending on the climb since i dont do it all the time i will set one piece for the downward pull and one for a upward pull and then use one runner to equalize them and then clip in to that set up
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mikebee
Feb 17, 2011, 12:17 PM
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In reply to: depending on the climb since i dont do it all the time i will set one piece for the downward pull and one for a upward pull and then use one runner to equalize them and then clip in to that set up
I tend to try to place a cam as my first piece to counter this. A well placed cam is generally good for both up and downwards pulls. If I can't get a cam, then I'll look around for a couple of nuts or something else that is multidirectional. One of my local climbs has a great thread for the first piece. That's an ideal situation, absolutely bomber in every direction you'd need.
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LostinMaine
Feb 21, 2011, 2:13 AM
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esander4 wrote: Hopefully this question doesn't come out confusing. I apparently have the grammar of a kindergartener. Would it be stupid or smart to double protect the first placement of a pitch/climb? In my mind I thought it might lessen the chance of the first piece of gear popping and the climber decking (since the first clip usually produces the biggest fall factor), but then I thought again and realized it might create an American Death Triangle in a fall (hopefully you can visualize how this happens, I can't really explain it very well) and because of the vector forces actually increase the chances of failing rock/gear. Thoughts?
If I recall, a few years ago a climber in the Gunks was on Roseland (or maybe Transcon?), took a fall, and had gear zipper from the ground up to him which resulted in a ground fall. Again, my recollection is fuzzy, but IIRC he was a very capable climber and was sewing up the climb well. It was the lack of a multi-directional first piece that made such a large difference.
Even if I am not adequately retelling the story, it has stuck in my mind since that time. I will always do my best to place a multi-directional first piece of pro any time that I can (e.g. two nuts in opposition with clove hitches, a well-sunk cam, two cams with a sliding X, etc.).
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A-Bowl
Feb 23, 2011, 8:37 PM
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You'll understand what i mean someday when youre pushing the limits. The ground and ledges are the enemy. Haven't you seen masters of stone where peter Croft is looking so cool and sending like a god: "You can fall 100 feet and it does not matter" Take it from croft and not me. how do you think climbing history is made these days and in the recent past. Going hard, seeing the reality of your situation and not letting the fear of a bunch of AIR time mess with your head. Hard cracks lend themselves to runnouts. The rule still applies to ledgy easy stuff: Protect against the ledges! Whatever back to sending... peace
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kachoong
Feb 23, 2011, 10:10 PM
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A-Bowl wrote: You'll understand what i mean someday when youre pushing the limits. The ground and ledges are the enemy. Haven't you seen masters of stone where peter Croft is looking so cool and sending like a god: "You can fall 100 feet and it does not matter" Take it from croft and not me. how do you think climbing history is made these days and in the recent past. Going hard, seeing the reality of your situation and not letting the fear of a bunch of AIR time mess with your head. Hard cracks lend themselves to runnouts. The rule still applies to ledgy easy stuff: Protect against the ledges! Whatever back to sending... peace
I think you missed my point. I understand protecting against ledge falls. That's basic stuff. I was sayin' you can't just assume that overhanging multipitch is safe and fun. Sure, hard cracks lend themselves to runouts, but at the same time gear is also often fiddly and shouldn't always be considered safe for 100' whippers.
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