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tequilaboom
May 18, 2011, 8:39 PM
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Hey guys!
My friend and I have been indoor climbing for several months now, and are able to do 5.9 with comfort. We have also climbed outdoors several times while top roping.
Now we want to explore lead climbing (with pre bolted routes outdoors). We haven't tried it yet though. Do you recommend taking a course? Or is sufficient to read books/youtube? - practically speaking. Does everyone who gets into lead climbing take a course? Or do most people just pick it up? We eventually want to get into trad climbing, but so far we don't have enough money for protection gear - so we'll stick to bolted routes.
Please let me know what you think!
Thanks everyone!
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gblauer
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May 18, 2011, 8:56 PM
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Probably best if you take a class at your gym. There, you will learn how to lead belay, properly manage your climbing rope and clipping/leading technique.
Once you master all of that you might consider finding some friendly climbers to take you outdoors. Outdoors you will need to learn how to hang the draws, build a TR anchor (even if it's off bolts) and clean the gear when you are done with the climb.
Climbing is very "zero-one". If you make a mistake it can result in serious injury or death. Lead climbing is serious business and should approach it that way.
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robx
May 18, 2011, 9:09 PM
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gblauer wrote: Probably best if you take a class at your gym. There, you will learn how to lead belay, properly manage your climbing rope and clipping/leading technique. Once you master all of that you might consider finding some friendly climbers to take you outdoors. Outdoors you will need to learn how to hang the draws, build a TR anchor (even if it's off bolts) and clean the gear when you are done with the climb. Climbing is very "zero-one". If you make a mistake it can result in serious injury or death. Lead climbing is serious business and should approach it that way.
I would like to echo this statement but add that lead classes teach you things that you can't always accurately get from reading alone. Yes you can learn what backcliping, z-clipping, and backstepping are from books, but the practical knowledge that comes from someone that's been climbing for years will send you on a good path.
I feel like the best way to learn is to climb with someone that can teach you for more than one or two weekends, but lead classes are an excellent option.
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lena_chita
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May 19, 2011, 2:52 AM
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Not everyone learns from a "class". You don't need an official class, but you need someone experienced to show you -- and then watch over you while you practice. Since a newbie like you doesn't have a good way of judging someone's experience or finding people willing to just teach you on their own free time, taking a class is a good option.
The problem with learning this sort of thing based on just trying out what you see in a book/video is that there are subtle but very important things that you might miss in a video/book diagram.
And there is no immediate feedback when you try it out on your own, no sure-fire way of knowing if you are doing it 'right'. Unless your partner falls, and you catch him. you don't really know that your belay is good. And even if you caught him once, do you know that you would catch him every time?
There are mistakes that you can get away with for a very long time -- until one day you don't. And remember, a mistake in this case could mean someone's life -- yours, or your buddy's.
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enigma
May 19, 2011, 7:01 AM
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tequilaboom wrote: Hey guys! My friend and I have been indoor climbing for several months now, and are able to do 5.9 with comfort. We have also climbed outdoors several times while top roping. Now we want to explore lead climbing (with pre bolted routes outdoors). We haven't tried it yet though. Do you recommend taking a course? Or is sufficient to read books/youtube? - practically speaking. Does everyone who gets into lead climbing take a course? Or do most people just pick it up? We eventually want to get into trad climbing, but so far we don't have enough money for protection gear - so we'll stick to bolted routes. Please let me know what you think! Thanks everyone!
You could hire a guide , or go to one of those RR rendevous, New River Gorge rendevous.
(This post was edited by enigma on May 19, 2011, 9:12 PM)
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qwert
May 19, 2011, 8:39 AM
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Obviously the answer to all your questions is
"it depends",
and most options have already been said, but here is one additional thing:
Be very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very carefull when trying to learn something from youtube videos !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (except if you are trying to learn from mistakes, since estimated 99.9% of youtube videos are prime examples of all kinds of mistakes one could make while climbing/ belaying).
qwert
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Greggle
May 19, 2011, 8:58 AM
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qwert wrote: Obviously the answer to all your questions is "it depends", and most options have already been said, but here is one additional thing: Be very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very carefull when trying to learn something from youtube videos !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (except if you are trying to learn from mistakes, since estimated 99.9% of youtube videos are prime examples of all kinds of mistakes one could make while climbing/ belaying). qwert
Gee whiz, qwert. What an annoying departure from your otherwise helpful posts...
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sungam
May 19, 2011, 11:35 AM
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Greggle wrote: qwert wrote: Obviously the answer to all your questions is "it depends", and most options have already been said, but here is one additional thing: Be very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very carefull when trying to learn something from youtube videos !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (except if you are trying to learn from mistakes, since estimated 99.9% of youtube videos are prime examples of all kinds of mistakes one could make while climbing/ belaying). qwert Gee whiz, qwert. What an annoying departure from your otherwise helpful posts...
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jacques
May 19, 2011, 12:01 PM
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tequilaboom wrote: We eventually want to get into trad climbing, but so far we don't have enough money for protection gear - so we'll stick to bolted routes. Please let me know what you think! Thanks everyone!
As the technique for belaying is more complex in sport than in trad, I suggest that you begin with trad on easier route to master your technique.
For belaying and rap: I suggest that you take a course, two of you, with a guide. Ask him to show you the major danger in rock climbing (ex, traverse, rappeling on nuts belay, pendulum. As they are expert, they will protect you against any danger.
After, take a course of aid climbing. Placing a good nuts on the ground is easy, Loading an rp's or rock number 2 on lead is feasible, but... Aid climbing will help you to see many feature in the rock and the limit of your cam, stopper.
In many cliff, they still have some climber that have a couple of climbing in their muscle. But, because they lost there shape, they don't want to lead. Don't choose the one who talk about what to do or not. Choose an instinctive climber. One who will not say a lot about technique, but that he will look at you with a smile and climb the hard section you have led effortless.
With all that knowledge, you will be able to safely climb a route. As you will eventually place a runner on a bolt, you will find easier to climb on bolt. Finding and trusting a stopper is mostly trad climbing. In sport, the fear to fall in a bad position will become evident and as you will sport climb, you will need special and complex technique for belaying.
(This post was edited by jacques on May 19, 2011, 12:02 PM)
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qwert
May 19, 2011, 12:31 PM
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Greggle wrote: qwert wrote: Obviously the answer to all your questions is "it depends", and most options have already been said, but here is one additional thing: Be very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very carefull when trying to learn something from youtube videos !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (except if you are trying to learn from mistakes, since estimated 99.9% of youtube videos are prime examples of all kinds of mistakes one could make while climbing/ belaying). qwert Gee whiz, qwert. What an annoying departure from your otherwise helpful posts...
Have you ever been to youtube?
that place is filled to the brim with idiots, and whats worse, most of those think they are experts. Just search for expert village on this here site …
qwert
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sungam
May 19, 2011, 1:02 PM
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tequilaboom wrote: Hey guys! My friend and I have been indoor climbing for several months now, and are able to do 5.9 with comfort. We have also climbed outdoors several times while top roping. Now we want to explore lead climbing (with pre bolted routes outdoors). We haven't tried it yet though. Do you recommend taking a course? Or is sufficient to read books/youtube? - practically speaking. Does everyone who gets into lead climbing take a course? Or do most people just pick it up? We eventually want to get into trad climbing, but so far we don't have enough money for protection gear - so we'll stick to bolted routes. Please let me know what you think! Thanks everyone!
However, if the class you take is at a gym... You may well miss a very important skill. Make sure you know how to safely set yourself up to lower before trying to lead a sport route outside!
Otherwise you may find yourself stuck at the top of a route with no option but unnecessarily leaving gear behind.
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tequilaboom
May 19, 2011, 1:21 PM
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Guys thank you so much for all the feedback - I didn't expect it!
It's interesting that I should find a guide rather than pay at the gym. Of course that seems more feasible. Unfortunately I live in South Ontario, Canada, and while I know many who go top roping (like me), none of them know anyone who knows how to lead.
The other issue is trust. My partner and I built a certain trust with one another. Is it normal practice to trust a person who knows how to climb but a person that I don't actually know? On the other hand, I don't know of any guide service that is cheap. All of the ones I know take large groups, which make it affordable. How feasible is it to hire a guide for just two people?
Again, thank you so much for the replies - they are really helpful.
and PS: I've been looking at climbing guide companies here in Ontario: what accreditation should they have in order for them to be trust worthy?
(This post was edited by tequilaboom on May 19, 2011, 1:41 PM)
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ddooddodo
May 19, 2011, 1:42 PM
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The forums have seemed more helpful lately 
One thing, this has been said before, is learn how to lower of the anchors safely without leaving gear. i.e. threading the rope through the rap-rings then lowering. if you don't then you will A. get hurt, or B. leave lots of gear behind.
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gblauer
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May 19, 2011, 2:45 PM
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It's likely that you will pay a total of $300-$450 for the guide service for the day for both of you.. Most guides will not let you lead, but, would be willing to teach you about leading. They will likely have you mock lead the climbs and maybe let you clean the top of a climb.
With a guide you are getting a "one time event", classes are typically run over a few sessions. This allows some time to practice in between sessions and it enables the material to sink in.
All that said, there are plenty of people who just go out and lead climb (my husband is one). He survived.
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amyas
May 19, 2011, 3:26 PM
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Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop.
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ChalkIsCheap
May 19, 2011, 4:26 PM
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Leaving gear behind is one thing. Something far worse would be attempting to clean a route and accidentally dropping your rope because you didn't tie it off before threading. It happens all the time. If nobody else is there and it's just the two of you then what are your options?
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sungam
May 19, 2011, 4:41 PM
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To be honest, you could probably learn inside. Just make sure to pay attention when the teacher talks about back clipping (or "death" clipping as I've heard it called), z-clipped, the rope getting behind your heel, etc.
Lead belaying is only slightly different from toprope belaying, in that you have to pay out slack as well as taking it in. However, being a GOOD lead belayer takes some practice (gauging when to pay out slack and how much).
Anyways, yeah, you could learn inside and then book-learn how to thread anchors ETC. as long as you thoroughly practiced this technique on the ground. I reccomend the technique where you pass a bight of rope through the chains and tye into into it with a (double thickness) fig 8 before untying from your original 8, so you are always tied in.
Make sure your new fig. 8 can hold your weight before you untie the original. this practice can be done anywhere where you can set up some anchors (slings around some low tree branches etc.).
Just make sure you got the technique down really well before trying to do it up off the ground.
And if you go sport climbing outside, make sure it's a sport climbing venue. Not all bolted crags are "sporty", and some may well have you filling your pants.
Also be aware that some areas are bolted with the notion that climbers using the area will have stick clips, so climbing the routes without one can lead to some dicey highballing before you can clip a bolt.
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cracklover
May 19, 2011, 4:49 PM
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Depends on what you really want to do. I learned to trad climb before I learned to sport climb. Making the transition in that direction is *much* easier than if you get good at sport climbing first and then try to pick up trad. Of course that's fine if you're much more interested in sport. Otherwise... you may find yourself having to unlearn a lot of habits to learn to be a good trad climber.
GO
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sticky_fingers
May 19, 2011, 4:58 PM
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jacques wrote: tequilaboom wrote: We eventually want to get into trad climbing, but so far we don't have enough money for protection gear - so we'll stick to bolted routes. Please let me know what you think! Thanks everyone! As the technique for belaying is more complex in sport than in trad...
Whaaaa--???
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erisspirit
May 19, 2011, 5:44 PM
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sticky_fingers wrote: jacques wrote: tequilaboom wrote: We eventually want to get into trad climbing, but so far we don't have enough money for protection gear - so we'll stick to bolted routes. Please let me know what you think! Thanks everyone! As the technique for belaying is more complex in sport than in trad... Whaaaa--???
I'm still trying to work this part out:
jacques wrote: In many cliff, they still have some climber that have a couple of climbing in their muscle. |
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enigma
May 19, 2011, 9:15 PM
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amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop.
Isn't it snowing alot where you live?
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Kartessa
May 19, 2011, 11:29 PM
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enigma wrote: amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop. Isn't it snowing alot where you live?
Your ignorance is showing...
... again.
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Kartessa
May 19, 2011, 11:30 PM
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Kartessa wrote: enigma wrote: amyas wrote: Yeah I just went out and did it too. Sport really isnt that complicated. I did end up taking a class about a year after I started climbing though and wished I had done it right when i started. There were no safety issues with the way I was doing things, but there are tons of little things I never would have picked up on myself to be more efficient, especially with multi-pitch where time spent can affect safety if the route is long enough. Really good free resource to check out is the petzl print catalogue, pick one up for free at your climb shop. Isn't it snowing alot where you live? Your ignorance is showing... ... again.
But I can't help but laugh when the word "Multipitch" comes out of the prairies 
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