Please continue to ignore this poster's advice, including the new advice he gives after he says he agrees that you should ignore the old advice.

Jay

down climb

Start bouldering.

Good idea for Kestrel! Downclimbing is an excellent activity for two crucial things that she needs to focus on right now, endurance and footwork. It simultaneously increases endurance and trains your brain to think about your feet first.

An important thing that you will notice is that you're thinking about your feet more when you're climbing down than when you're climbing up. And here's the catch: This will train you to think about your feet more while you're climbing up! You're training your brain--you're 'tricking' it into focusing on what it should be while you climb up.

[K]eep pushing and next time you climb, your muscles will be able to tolerate more before your ability to hold on is compromised. Push your endurance as far as your body is functionally capable and that point at which you fail will be further than last time. If you do this, your endurance will increase, noticeably, every time you climb.

Always focus on movement, but push yourself while doing that.

I've read that like 5 times in the last couple of days. How did this suddenly come to be the stupid advice du jour?

Jay

If downclimbing is such good training for up-climbing, then why is up-climbing apparently such poor training for down-climbing, as exemplified by the fact that most climbers don't downclimb very well unless they specifically practice this skill. This is evidence that up-climbing and downclimbing are separate skills, and that training one has little crossover benefit to the other.


I think that that "catch" requires some evidence.


Nonsense. There is no exercise you can do that will increase endurance after a single session. Muscules require repeat efforts for adaptation.


But of course it wrong to push yourself while trying to learn new movement, as explained in The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

Advice du jour, sure, but I would not go so far as to call it stupid. Focusing on climbing smoothly forces you to think about the your movement and body position, and trying not to thrutch your way up a route like a meathead will also help your technique.

Downclimbing.
The reason downclimbing improves upclimbing yet upclimbing does not improve downclimbing is because we have a habit of doing something that is inefficient while upclimbing, which is focusing on our hands and pulling up. This is probably because 1) our hands are right in front of our face and 2) our hands are the first thing going up the rock. In studying the bodily mechanics of climbing, we've discovered that it is far more efficient to get your legs to do as much of the work as possible, so we we've learned that we should focus on them more than our hands. Downclimbing forces us to do this, because when we downclimb, our feet are now leading us down the rock, so we tend to think about them first. As we do this more over time, we build the habit of thinking about feet first. It is a tendency to think a certain way that we are building, in this case a productive one.

Endurance can Increase In One Day.
Do not confuse endurance with strength. The body does adapt, but adaptation involving endurance occurs much more quickly than adaptation involving strength. As far as the ability of the body's endurance to improve after a single session, it certainly can and does. I witness it in the gym all the time, and I've experienced it myself a number of times. Whenever someone takes around week off or more, the day of their return, their endurance is noticeably lower than before. If they push themselves that day, then return the very next day, their endurance will be up, sometimes considerably. I realize that a climber's testimony is not 'proof,' but you can also witness people gassing out on routes they've had wired for weeks, then the very next day they are sending them while barely breathing. Yes, this happens, believe it or not. I see it almost weekly.

Don't Push Yourself While Learning New Movement.
Of course, that's not what I was recommending. Aren't you familiar with the 4x4? See Activity 34 on pages 147-149 of The Self-Coached Climber. You use problems you have wired. You're not learning new movements, you're going through movements you already know, and simply forcing yourself to mentally focus on making movements as perfectly as you can despite being pumped. Again, it's psychological habit-building, and these healthy focusing tendencies will carry over to performance in climbing routes. Keep in mind, I'm only recommending the 4x4 for Kestrel after she has 4 bouldering problems wired.

Downclimbing. The reason downclimbing improves upclimbing yet upclimbing does not improve downclimbing is because we have a habit of doing something that is inefficient while upclimbing, which is focusing on our hands and pulling up.

In studying the bodily mechanics of climbing, we've discovered that it is far more efficient to try to get your legs to do the work, so we we've learned that should focus on them more than our hands. Downclimbing forces us to do this, because when we downclimb, our feet are now leading us down the rock . . .

As we do this more over time, we build the habit of thinking about feet first. It is a tendency to think a certain way that we are building, in this case a productive one.

Endurance can Increase Immediately. Do not confuse endurance with strength. The body does adapt, but adaptation involving endurance occurs much more quickly than adaptation involving strength. As far as the ability of the body's endurance to improve after a single session, it certainly can and does.

I witness it in the gym all the time, and I've experienced it myself a number of times.

Whenever someone takes around week off or more, the day of their return, their endurance is noticeably lower than before.

If they push themselves that day, then return the very next day, their endurance will be up, sometimes considerably.

Who has that habit? Speak for yourself. And even if you have this habit, how does downclimbing alleviate it?


But they're not. You have to move your hands down to lower holds before you can extend your knees and hips to move your feet down. Downclimbing requires you to focus on where the next lower handholds are.


Any time your're ready to stop pretending that you're an expert in the kinesiology of climbing, and admit that you neither have the experience, training, or evidence to make any of these assertions, please let us know.


Absolute fucking nonsense. Take an exercise physiology class.


More nonsense. What, if anything, you witness or experience is improvement in efficiency of movement. You can see this even in beginning weight lifters, where they make huge improvements early in their training. They are not gaining strength or endurance per se, they're just learing to eliminate gross errors in their technique. Same in climbing.


Once again, speak for yourself.



So, you're claiming that the harder they climb, the more endurance they will have the very next day. Well, you, Sir, are an idiot.

Jay

You may be right on the endurance part.. but in climbing i would define a increase in movement as a increase in endurance..

Down climbing is every bit important to foot work as up climbing.

Not only have you proved you can not down climb, you have proved you can not give training advice to any given situation.

You also still refuse to answer a direct question that i recall asking in multiple threads. How is it, since you know everything.. that all you have achieved is a level of climbing that is more than attainable for a person who can only climb 2 days a week and 1/3 of your knowledge?.

If downclimbing is such good training for up-climbing, then why is up-climbing apparently such poor training for down-climbing, as exemplified by the fact that most climbers don't downclimb very well unless they specifically practice this skill. This is evidence that up-climbing and downclimbing are separate skills, and that training one has little crossover benefit to the other.


I think that that "catch" requires some evidence.


Nonsense. There is no exercise you can do that will increase endurance after a single session. Muscules require repeat efforts for adaptation.


But of course it wrong to push yourself while trying to learn new movement, as explained in The Self-Coached Climber.

Jay

If downclimbing is such good training for up-climbing, then why is up-climbing apparently such poor training for down-climbing, as exemplified by the fact that most climbers don't downclimb very well unless they specifically practice this skill. This is evidence that up-climbing and downclimbing are separate skills, and that training one has little crossover benefit to the other.

You're climbing in the direction that your eyes are at when your going up, so you tend to see holds better than when you're going down.

Jay, I agree with most of what you say in this thread, especially as it relates to sport climbing, and the achievement of higher numbers. For traditional climbing and alpine rock, downclimbing is a skill which may save your bacon.

The above section which I bolded is troubling. I think you have assumed some "facts" not in evidence ("most climbers don't downclimb very well...") and have made a bit of a logical fallacy regarding downclimbing as potential training, for climbing.

"A" is reputed (without evidence) to cause "B". The (apparent) fact that "B" does not in turn, cause "A" is given as evidence that "A" does not actually cause "B".

You're climbing in the direction that your eyes are at when your going up, so you tend to see holds better than when you're going down. Also gravity is in the opposite direction of most movements making it easy to make a deadpoint going up, and harder when downclimbing.

I'm not arguing that downclimbing is a good technique training for climbing up, but it's certainly a useful tool to work on endurance if you're stuck climbing at a gym that's 25 feet tall.

Defining it that way is counterproductive to training. Increasing movement efficiency and improving endurance are completely different physiologically, the former primarily being a nervous system activity, the latter involving the development of specific adaptations of the muscle cells. Thinking of these two things as being the same is an example of how a lack of understanding of physiology can lead to nonsensical training ideas.

Jay

And Bolix. It is ''nonsensical'' training to separate these two. As far as i give a flying fk they are Siamese twins.. kill one you kill the other.

Option A: You want to train endurance, so you find a route.. and off you go. Very soon you acquire the efficient movement to climb that route and repeat the same sequences over and over and over... on you go for another 30 min (wasting what could be movement learning time). Once the endurance gains plateau and are able to climb that route for 45 min you find a new route. In doing that it is unavoidable that you will receive more movement gains from the new activity (good thing though obviously). But the thing is, at best.. you spend 30 min of that drill repeating the same moves making next to no movement gains. A 30 min loss every drill will add up fast.


Option B: The person could try to improve as a climber by refining movement on climbs that is far to low on their aerobic level, or refine movement with ought doing continues climbing. They will miss out on substantial endurance gains. Any gains made in movement alone will not help that much.. since their physical condition has not improved to use those movement gains in a performance climb at a higher level for a prolonged period. Basically.. the time they spent training movement on piss easy walls was a utter waste, and not efficient training time.

Option C: While training endurance, use every hold on a line and constantly climb new sequences so long as they keep within the zone to make the desired endurance type gains. Once every possible sequence perceived possible is found their repeat 1 more time (can usually all be done with a 45 min endurance drill). Never use a completed line again till new routes have been set. Endurance gains diminish as movement skill increases within a route. An avg climber can get a good idea how to do a new sequence/move with most efficiency in 3 attempts. A half decent climber can easily get it in 2.. and a pro i dare say may get it first time.

Option C mixes the best of both A and B into 1 activity of endurance training and never allows the gains to reach the late or even mid stage of plateau in either endurance or movement. In a sense, it is like ''on sighting'' your endurance drills, followed by a single re send for confirmation or refinement of the completed sequences (even another resend viable). You make steady gains on many fronts.. and are only restricted by how often routes are changed.. and your ability to find new sequences while staying within your desired endurance range.

Then that just leaves strength training to add into the equation.

Would you like to hear about my nonsensicle training for that?.

Look, you said that you defined endurance and movement efficiency as being the same thing, and here you lay three options that show that you don't. Even your Option C, which you claim is the best, shows unequivocaly that you recognize that they are different things: "Endurance gains diminish as movement skill increases within a route."


What do you think?

Jay

So, you think that the most efficient path to improvement in climbing is not to climb at all? Pure and utter bullshit.

Why do you think climbers can climb while the rest of the population basically cannot? You, sir, are the shit in the horses ass.

So, you think that the most efficient path to improvement in climbing is not to climb at all? Pure and utter bullshit.