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gnubbs
Jan 3, 2003, 9:58 PM
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After spending my whole summer and fall top roping and sport climbing, I have developed a strong desire to hook up with a trad climber and get out on some longer routes. I have seen tons of posts asking what gear a new leader needs, advice on learning to lead, etc., but I have seen very little info on those same things for a second.
If you were to let some gumby follow you, what would you expect out of them? What gear would you like to see them show up at the bottom of the route with? What skills should they have? What grade would you like them to climb at? What books should they have read? Most importantly, how many beers at Mountain Sun should they plan on buying after a day in Eldo?
Most everyone's advice on learning to lead is to follow, but I have found very little on what would make the ideal follower. I've got all winter to read and practice any skills, so lay it on me.
thanks,
gnubbs
PS. Any trad climbers in the Boulder area looking for an apprentice, tell me what you would like me know, and PM me. I am always up for a climb.
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apollodorus
Jan 3, 2003, 10:05 PM
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You need to learn how to clean pieces, especially those that take falls, or otherwise get stuck. Stoppers get wedged tightly, or slip into and then down lower in cracks. Cams can walk into cracks.
Leaving someone's gear on a climb as booty for the next guys is the best way to be forced into learning how to solo.
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scrappydoo
Jan 3, 2003, 10:30 PM
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How many beers are you offering to buy at the Southern Sun?
Most important piece of equipment to get besides the basics (shoes, harness, belay device) is a nut tool attached to enough small diameter cord (2mm or less) to tie it to your harness and have enough length to reach, straight-armed, above your head. A couple locking biners and 1 or 2 runners are good to have.
Know your S##t when it comes to belaying, and read-up about anchors.
Know yer knots, and learn how to prussik. Mountaineering: the Freedom of the Hills is a great all-around book to get, or you can get a smaller and cheaper book on climbing knots with something about self-rescue.
Pay attention: when cleaning pieces, rack them on your harness like they are on the leader's rack so that, at the next anchor, you can re-rack the pieces quickly and easily.
Don't be afraid to ask questions if you are unsure about something; but only after thinking through it yourself.
I'm sure I missed some good advice, but the most important thing is attitude; chill but motivated.
Hope it helps!
Steve: PM me if you wanna do some intro climbs soon
[ This Message was edited by: scrappydoo on 2003-01-03 14:39 ]
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gnubbs
Jan 3, 2003, 11:15 PM
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apollodorus,
Yeah, cleaning is something that I definately expect to learn to do well quickly. However, lacking a rack, this does not seem to be a skill that you can develop before starting up your first trad route.
gnubbs
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gnubbs
Jan 3, 2003, 11:25 PM
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That depends on the crag -- cob rock gets a pitcher, the diamond gets a gift card good for a weeks worth of Java Porter
What about self rescue skills? That was one thing that I was planning on getting out and practicing some before I asked anyone to let me follow. I have read Freedom of the Hills and Climbing Anchors, but am planning on re-reading both.
Thanks for the feedback. I am planning on getting out this weekend for some sport climbing, maybe I will take some cord and practice pruisking as well. Tomorrow will be 56 and sunny in the canyon...
gnubbs
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micronut
Jan 4, 2003, 12:16 AM
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Get fast, espiecially with the rope. When I lead trad., as I'm sorting and racking gear on my harness, the belayer shuld be stacking the rope, getting their shoes ready, etc... Just try to do 50% of the chores.
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sspssp
Jan 4, 2003, 12:19 AM
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Good attitude (intense about climbing/relaxed otherwise).
Good lead belay skills (amount of slack and rope management is different for trad than it is for sport).
Comfortable rappelling. (A vertical rescue course and/or first aid would be extra. The leader is the most likely to get hurt)
If I'm leading with a newbie climber/belayer, I usually stick to terrain I wouldn't feel too bad about soloing, so climbing level is not too critical (at least for me).
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madturtle
Jan 4, 2003, 12:37 AM
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Make sure you are being honest about your skills when you head up a climb. Taking a fall is expected here and there, but hanging on the rope and resting for 5-10 minutes can really suck for your leader if he's belaying from above directly off his harness. Just let him know if you think the climb is at your limit. If it is he should set up the belay either directly from the anchor or at least run it through the anchor. He should also be able to sew up any difficult traverses if you are pushing yourself.
And like someone said above organizing gear as you climb is clutch, helps decrease the wank factor at belays. And don't drop stuff!! Might want to add a daisy chain to that equipment list too. Happy craggin.
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holdplease2
Jan 4, 2003, 1:30 AM
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First off, there aren't many posts like this, I would be really impressed with my new second if they posted something like this and planned ahead to TRY to be good, whether they were good at the start or not.
All of the folks here have great advice, from the stuff to carry (couple of lockers, couple of slings, DEFINATELY a nut tool, and a daisy is nice.) The lockers and slings are so that YOU can be equipped to tie YOURSELF into the anchor or whatever, and that YOU can pruss. up the rope with the gear on YOUR harness if you need to. It makes you a self-sufficient second.
In terms of doing half the work, showing up with the slings doubled over (if possible) and knowing how to hand the gear to your leader will SAVE HIM/HER TIME and FRUSTRATION.
Also, as you will not be SWINGING LEADS, you might know how to re-stack the rope he/she belayed you upon, so that his/her end of the rope is on top again, yeilding a smoother lead belay. Smooth rope management makes a good second.
When it comes to getting the gear out of the wall, this is the "money" part of the job. If you can get the stuff out, you are the bomb. Part of knowing how to get the gear out is understanding how it went in. Reading up on this will really help. Be especially careful with cams, know how to tell when they might get "overcammed" and what to do when they have "walked" back into the crack (operate the trigger with your nut tool)
Also, if you go on longer climbs, be ready to carry the small pack with food, water, shoes, jackets, as this is a common job for the second.
ALL of this said, everyone who is a good trad leader takes some responsibility for their second, a leader in more ways than one. Choosing a good leader for your first climbs is key, they will teach you good things and do all of the things that a good leader would to lead a climb that is safely protected for their second.
Also, don't be too nervous. Every great trad leader started off as a new trad second.
Enjoy you climbing, I wish I was in Colo so I could be lucky enough to have a second as interested in learning as this.
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histai
Jan 4, 2003, 1:38 AM
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There is a lot of great advice above.
I would only like to stress the being honest about your ability with your leader and add that the thing you should never, ever forget is that the Mountain Sun does not take plastic, so make sure you have cash.
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knuckles
Jan 4, 2003, 2:01 AM
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Get some gear and practice setting and cleaning it on the ground... you don't want to be the guy who can't remove someone's favorite pink tricam
Bone up on the prussik work, learn to take yourself out of the belay system with one if your leader gets injured (knock wood)... again do this on the ground before you need it
Have fun, take pictures.. I loved this part of my climbing career... the first time I felt like I was really climbing
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sunsation
Jan 4, 2003, 2:26 AM
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ohhhh knuckles, do i EVER hear what you are saying! i'd been climbing for six years before i did my first trad multi-pitch. it changed everything.
gnubs, buy as many beers as it takes. it will be worth it.
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rprp
Jan 4, 2003, 2:39 AM
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Skill and speed cleaning a pitch will keep you in good graces with your leaders. So practice that whenever and however you can.
If you come up on a piece that looks tricky to clean or that doesn't come out easy, then take. The leader would rather hold your weight for a minute than have you get a piece really jammed. That is the down side about removing gear--if you pull or push it the wrong way, then it might be stuck for good. So be willing to use both hands so that you can do it right the first time.
Also, you don't want to get tired on long climbs so build up your endurance by doing lots of laps on toprope (which will build your skills too). You don't want your climbing ability to drop by a couple of grades before you top out.
Have fun!
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stevematthys
Jan 4, 2003, 2:40 AM
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hey if you want to follow someone, feel free to e-mail me and we'll head out to eldo i was actually just in eldo today , although it was windy as hell.
If your going to follow me all i ask is that you have a daisy chain and a nut tool, or i can supply both if you dont have one. and all the normal stuff like belay device, some spare biners and all that sh*t. be able to climb around the 5.8-5.9 level, because eldo routes are sand bagged. everything else i can teach you pretty easily.
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duskerhu
Jan 4, 2003, 4:15 AM
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When I saw this title I thought, "Gee, thats a good one I've never seen before..."
Tons of good advice here but I would "qualify" all of it with one point...
A good leader that partners up with you will understand that you're new to trad climbs and should start you out on relatively mild terrain. He'll also either borrow you some gear or take you out and show you a few tricks to use when cleaning gear. Practice placing and removing some gear before you actually second a route.
The last thing you want is to be following a .9+ 200 feet off the deck when you come to a #8 stopper the leader took a 20 footer on and not know what to do with it.
What rprp said about calling "take" is good advice but its also good to be able to stand on sketchy footing, holding on with one hand and still be able to remove the piece with your free hand and not totally pump out in the process...
Think "relax" and try to have the peice about chest level if the footing allows it. Take your time (efficiently) and make sure you don't drop the piece once you get it out (your new partner will show you tricks/techniques associated with this).
Live Free!
Play Hard!
Climb On!
duskerhu
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winkwinklambonini
Jan 4, 2003, 5:54 PM
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Excellent Question, I'm sure much of the obvious stuff has been said. so I'll just add one thing.
rope/crab1---------crab2/-----piece
/crab3(on piece)
Order of events to make re-racking most efficient
1.Pull out piece and grab crab3
2.Crab3 on harness
3.disconnect crab2 from piece and on harness
4. disconnect crab1 from rope.
Result: draw and piece are seperate, with the draw hanging from the correct end, and nothing ever could have been dropped.
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pbcowboy77
Jan 4, 2003, 8:27 PM
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Don't give up on a peece too quick. You would be surprised how you can be bangging on a nut with your nut tool for a while but all you need to do is grab the draw and give it a good yank upward. But I've done it and others have done it to me. Just rember that nuts don't become one with the rock.
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fern
Jan 4, 2003, 9:25 PM
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you can also use your nut-tool carabiner like brass knuckles to punch the end of your nuttool to pop a stuck nut out.
if you're climbing with a pack attach a leash to the grab-loop (or top of shoulder straps) and then clip the leash to your belay loop, then if you need to drop and drag the pack while climbing (eg chimney) you are all ready. Also when you get to a belay you can clip the pack in quickly.
Just 'cause someone more experienced agrees to take you climbing and show you stuff doesn't necessarily mean they have agreed to 'guide' you. You still are responsible for your own safety, so speak up when you don't understand what's going on or something seems wrong.
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hugepedro
Jan 4, 2003, 10:48 PM
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Great questions, and great answers.
I've pasted below my mental checklist for belaying and seconding. This is a general list, i.e. it doesn't just apply to trad seconding, and has more info than you asked for (I'm too lazy to delete the non-pertinent stuff). I apologize in advance if the format turns out hard to read, I'm pasting from Word and not sure how it will turn out.
Before the climb starts:
- Be sure that the climbing system is rigged properly before the climb starts.
· Are your harnesses fitted properly with the buckle doubled back?
· Is your climber tied in properly?
· Is your belay device and biner rigged correctly, and is your biner locked?
· Are you anchored sufficiently for the situation, could you get pulled off by your climber's fall?
· When top-roping and belaying from level ground it is usually not necessary for the belayer to be anchored, unless the climber is significantly heavier than the belayer.
· If the belayer is not on level ground they should be tied into a belay anchor.
· If the belayer is going to second the route they should tie into the rope now, if not, tie a stopper knot in the rope.
- Survey the route, make sure you and your climber are both prepared, talk about your plan.
· How will your climber and you get down? By lowering, rappelling, or hiking off the top?
· How long is the climb?
· Is it a full pitch? You'll need to be aware of when the rope is running short and communicate this. If you're planning to lower off you'll need 2 ropes. Now is the time to rig the 2nd rope and belay device.
· Is it a half pitch? If you will be lowering your climber you need to secure your end of the rope (tie in or tie a stopper knot in the end) to prevent dropping your climber.
· Does your climber have the appropriate protection gear, and gear to retreat if they can't top out?
· Will you be able to remain in verbal communication for the duration of the climb? If not, agree on a non-verbal means (such as rope tugs) now.
· Are there any areas that look like rock fall hazards? You'll both need to pay attention.
During the climb:
- Never release your brake hand from the rope.
- Focus your full attention on the climber, do not allow yourself to be distracted.
- Be aware of the leader’s position as related to hazards (like over ledges), visualize what will happen if they fall, and be prepared to use the appropriate belay technique to minimize the risk of injury in a fall.
· When should you give a dynamic belay?
· When should you take up slack?
· When should you use a desperate running belay?
- Feed the rope smoothly, anticipating the climber's movements.
- Monitor the amount of rope you have at the belay - tell the climber how much is left when it gets down to about 30 feet.
- Communicate clearly; make sure you both understand exactly what the other is doing.
- Give encouragement, but don't be overly helpful, no one wants the problem solved for them.
After the climber has topped out:
- Keep them on belay until they clearly communicate that they are off belay.
- If you are going to lower them off, make sure you have enough rope to do so. If you don't, now is the time to tie a second rope to the climbing rope and rig another belay device to pass the knot, if you didn't already do this before the climb.
If you are seconding the route:
- Make sure you are on belay before you start to break down the anchor and prepare to climb. If you are unable to hear each other, a simple technique to be sure is to hold back 10 feet of the rope when the leader pulls up the slack. When you think you are on belay, pull on the rope to see if it is held, then feed out a few feet of slack and see if the leader takes it up. Pull on the rope again to see if the leader is holding it. The leader should have you on belay within seconds after pulling the rope, but his technique will help you be absolutely certain.
- Break down the anchor; gather up any gear that needs to come up with you, and start climbing.
- As you clean pro, first remove it from the rock, then clip the biner to your harness or gear sling, then unclip the pro from the rope.
- Try to rack the gear in an orderly fashion so that it is not such a mess at the top.
- Observe the quality of the pro placements so you can learn and so you can let the leader know if any pieces came out prematurely.
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gnubbs
Jan 6, 2003, 5:02 PM
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Thanks for the great responses everybody, especially those of you who offered to take me out and show me the ropes. There was a lot of great information contributed, which should keep me busy until I get a chance to get out onto the rock for some hands-on education.
Thanks again,
gnubbs
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sspssp
Jan 6, 2003, 5:32 PM
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As far as training for leading goes, it is good practice to try and take a piece out without hanging. But I'll second rprp, it is better to hang than get a piece stuck. When you hang, the rope stretches, a lot. So climb four four feet or so above the piece before you hang (and warn your belayer if in hearing distance), with stretch, it should then be a comfortable height.
Also, for long multi-pitch, don't screw around too long. If you can't figure a move out, feel free to yard through on a cam (you can do this with stoppers also, but then they might be very difficult to clean). If no cam is possible, yard through on the rope. You can batman up the rope a short distance to a good stance and then release the rope so the belayer can pull the slack up. Again, this isn't the best training for leading, but it's better than spending an hour trying to second the pitch and running out of endurance and daylight.
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rprp
Jan 7, 2003, 4:18 AM
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When you are tired and its dark, then you can practice having an epic...
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stevematthys
Jan 7, 2003, 5:50 AM
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well then i have had tons of practice
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climbsomething
Jan 7, 2003, 6:38 AM
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I'll "second" hugepedro ( ), particularly his tips on removing pro without dropping it.
Leaders, like, don't like it when you drop their toys. Especially if you're waaaay off the deck. So, go like this with the gear: out of the rock-to the harness-THEN off the rope. That way it's always clipped into something. So, you know, if you're ever cleaning a cam that's a bit over your head, but you suddenly lose your stance, and startled, you yank the piece right into your face on your way off the rock, you won't send it whistling into the void. (NO! Climbsomething has NEVER done this! )
Better a #3.5 cam to the chin than a disemboweled #3.5 cam (and perhaps, you) in the talus way down below.
I have carried this tactic over to cleaning sport, and sometimes I get lightly razzed, but have I ever dropped a spiffy Petzl Spirit quickdraw? No
...Oh, and if you're riding in his car, don't whine too much about whatever radio station he picks
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one900johnnyk
Jan 7, 2003, 4:22 PM
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wink: are you saying that you pull the piece out and then keep the draw on the rope and then you clip the piece to a biner on your harness, then unclip the piece from the draw. then draw to harness and unclip draw from rope? in that order? i want to start cleaning trad and my biggest fear is leaving/dropping someone's gear (although i now how two stoppers of my own to contribute. damn i'm fresh) ... that seems like a good (and thorough) system if i have it right. thanks a lot
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