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jensk


Oct 30, 2011, 8:22 PM
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"Projecting" courtesy?
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As a slave to Monday to Friday, I am a weekend warrior. I frequently show up at the crag for the weekend, warm up and then head to whatever my "project" currently is. I work the route, hang the draws, brush the holds, rest, and then give the first redpoint attempt of the day on a Saturday. My area features long endurance type climbs, so I only get a few good attempts a day. It seems like whenever I finish hanging the draws, a group of 5-6 college students will show up. The stud of the group will hangdog his way up the route by grabbing every draw and then let his buddies hang on top rope for the rest of the day for many hours. None of them have any prayer of redpointing. They grease the holds as they thrash up. Last weekend, I watched a shirtless dude dripping in sweat lean in to the holds as beads of sweat grease key crux edges. I politely sent up a brush with each dogger and ask that they brush key holds for me. Whenever I announce that I will be going for my next attempt in one hour, I have been told, "Oh, Bill, Steve, Mike, Tom, and John were going to get on this route also". After enduring this for awhile, I finally get annoyed to the point that I want to stick cliip the first two bolts, lean my stick onto the route and declare that it is off limits. The only problem is that all my friends want belays elsewhere at the crags so I have to leave. If I want to rest two hours, warm up briefly and then get on for another attempt, I should have the rights to get on. Any thoughts or tips? My experiences from Europe are that if I was French, I would just tie in and start leading and yell at the toproper above me. These groups just don't get the point and these routes aren't gumby routes. Last trip I just cut in and am glad I did. One putz that was putting on his shoes was miffed last trip that I cut in. Our area has over a 1,000 sport routes and the routes are very texture dependent (brushing wise) so I ain't just whining. (although many of the routes I am working have fixed draws year round)

I ice climb a ton and find that in ice climbing, we always let the leader pre-empt the top roper.

(This post was edited by jensk on Oct 30, 2011, 8:40 PM)


redlude97


Oct 30, 2011, 8:42 PM
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Re: [jensk] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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You don't get to claim a route unless you are semi-actively working it. That's kind of douchey, Are you letting them french-free up on your draws?


jt512


Oct 30, 2011, 8:56 PM
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Re: [jensk] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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At most sport crags I've climbed at, if you put up the draws, you get to climb the route when you want to. You have to let others climb the route while you're resting, but if you tell them that you want to do your next burn in, say, an hour, then they should honor that.

Jay


guangzhou


Oct 30, 2011, 9:08 PM
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Re: [redlude97] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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Last weekend, my friends and I were headed to crag because we wanted to do this route that was hard for us. We had a friend from out of town who climbs harder than us, so this was agood opportunity to push ourselves on routes we normaly wouldn't try. Having arope gum always helps.

When we arrived, they was a guy who decided to camp at the base of the route all day to work the moves. He didn't refer to the route, it was just his "project."

One of my buddies asked if we could top-rope the route and the dude was cool with it. Even told us to use his draws. They were a few of us, so it took some time. He was taking a two hour rest between tries instead of climbing something a bit closer to limit and increasing the mileage.

When we were just about done, he gave us a bush to clean the route which we did, then moved on. A couple hours later, after climbing a few other routes, we passed by the same dude on the same route still working the same moves. (Taking these two hour rest in between burns.)

When we walked by, I overheard him tell his buddy that we were the guys who hogged his route that morning and that we had no respect for people who wanted to camp at the base of a route while working the moves all day.

Instead of talking us into belaying him while his climbing partners were climbing elsewhere, he waited till the weekend was over to post his complaints on RC.com.

Some questions:

The dude had partners, but they were climbing somewhere else, does that mean they don't appreciate his attitude any more than he appreciates ours?

Can you really claim a route all day, or all weekend by just hanging your draws on it?

Because he didn't ask us to belay him on the route, should we have offered too belay him when he was done resting?

Does cleaning the holds between every single try really make that big of a difference?


redlude97


Oct 30, 2011, 10:48 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
Last weekend, my friends and I were headed to crag because we wanted to do this route that was hard for us. We had a friend from out of town who climbs harder than us, so this was agood opportunity to push ourselves on routes we normaly wouldn't try. Having arope gum always helps.

When we arrived, they was a guy who decided to camp at the base of the route all day to work the moves. He didn't refer to the route, it was just his "project."

One of my buddies asked if we could top-rope the route and the dude was cool with it. Even told us to use his draws. They were a few of us, so it took some time. He was taking a two hour rest between tries instead of climbing something a bit closer to limit and increasing the mileage.

When we were just about done, he gave us a bush to clean the route which we did, then moved on. A couple hours later, after climbing a few other routes, we passed by the same dude on the same route still working the same moves. (Taking these two hour rest in between burns.)

When we walked by, I overheard him tell his buddy that we were the guys who hogged his route that morning and that we had no respect for people who wanted to camp at the base of a route while working the moves all day.

Instead of talking us into belaying him while his climbing partners were climbing elsewhere, he waited till the weekend was over to post his complaints on RC.com.

Some questions:

The dude had partners, but they were climbing somewhere else, does that mean they don't appreciate his attitude any more than he appreciates ours?

Can you really claim a route all day, or all weekend by just hanging your draws on it?

Because he didn't ask us to belay him on the route, should we have offered too belay him when he was done resting?

Does cleaning the holds between every single try really make that big of a difference?
I assume by replying to me that my post is being misconstrued due to my poor use of puncuation. Those statements were supposed to be 2 seperate thoughts, similar to what Jay stated. You don't get to project a route all day, people should be able to climb it when you are resting, but if they are your draws you shouldn't have to wait when you are ready to climb again.


guangzhou


Oct 30, 2011, 11:18 PM
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Re: [redlude97] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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Actually, my reply was aimed at the OP, not your reply.

I agree with both your statements.

To Jay, what happens if I hang my draws on my project for the season?


(This post was edited by guangzhou on Oct 30, 2011, 11:21 PM)


jt512


Oct 30, 2011, 11:51 PM
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Re: [guangzhou] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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guangzhou wrote:
To Jay, what happens if I hang my draws on my project for the season?

Then you've done everyone a big favor.

Jay


guangzhou


Oct 30, 2011, 11:53 PM
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Re: [jt512] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
guangzhou wrote:
To Jay, what happens if I hang my draws on my project for the season?

Then you've done everyone a big favor.

Jay

Tongue

Agree with your previous post too by the way.


USnavy


Oct 31, 2011, 12:10 AM
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Re: [] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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If a party is waiting to climb a route, I dont think its proper of anyone to clog up the route for hours on end, even if you have your draws on the line, or you got there first. If you have a lot of people in your group I believe you should allow other waiting parties to climb the line as well without making them wait until all 14 people in your group climb it.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Oct 31, 2011, 12:12 AM)


guangzhou


Oct 31, 2011, 12:38 AM
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Re: [USnavy] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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YOu should read more carefully before you post.

As for making other parties wait, like it or not, it is first come first serve.

If I reach the route before you do and it takes me an hour and a half to lead the pitch, wait your turn. If my six friends and I got there first and we're all climbing the route, not just sitting there staring at it, you can wait your turn or go climb something else.

Do I let people climb routes I am occupying, sometimes yes, sometimes no.


lena_chita
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Oct 31, 2011, 6:50 AM
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Re: [jt512] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
At most sport crags I've climbed at, if you put up the draws, you get to climb the route when you want to. You have to let others climb the route while you're resting, but if you tell them that you want to do your next burn in, say, an hour, then they should honor that.

Jay

+1

If you have your draws hanging, but you are not climbing, or actively preparing to climb and getting on the route within 5 minutes, if someone shows up and asks to have a run on your draws, you let them.
But you make it clear what your timeline is.


I have never seen a group of 5 or 6, esp. topropers, climb on someone else's draws and proceed to occupy a route for hours. On their own draws, if they were the first ones to get on the route in the morning -- yes, but not if they were allowed to cut in line on someone else's gear/rope. And if this were the case, and they were doing it on my draws, I would not hesitate to step in and tell them politely but firmly that I was going up next and their rope was coming down. Depending on the situation, I might offer to climb on their rope, so their rope is set up for toprope again after I am done, so they could have another run or two on toprope if I am planning to rest and try again, or switch out their draws for mine, if I was going to leave after that try.


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...


(This post was edited by lena_chita on Oct 31, 2011, 7:28 AM)


camhead


Oct 31, 2011, 7:02 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)


johnwesely


Oct 31, 2011, 7:17 AM
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Re: [camhead] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

20 minutes at every bolt on a thirty foot tall climb is not anywhere near two hours. Everyone knows that the Red is a Zoo anyways.


lena_chita
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Oct 31, 2011, 7:24 AM
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Re: [camhead] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? Smile

I thought YOU were the one who needed a tissue for this sort of experience... since you are on the receiving end of it more often. Everyone knows that I don't hang my own draws on anything, duh!


njrox


Oct 31, 2011, 7:25 AM
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Re: [jensk] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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jensk wrote:
Any thoughts or tips?

Sucks, but really what can you do? Buy the land? Put up a no tresspass sign? Unimpressed


(This post was edited by njrox on Oct 31, 2011, 7:35 AM)


caughtinside


Oct 31, 2011, 8:58 AM
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Re: [camhead] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

har har. Welcome to the Red.


Partner cracklover


Oct 31, 2011, 9:02 AM
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Re: [jensk] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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jensk wrote:
As a slave to Monday to Friday, I am a weekend warrior. I frequently show up at the crag for the weekend, warm up and then head to whatever my "project" currently is. I work the route, hang the draws, brush the holds, rest, and then give the first redpoint attempt of the day on a Saturday. My area features long endurance type climbs, so I only get a few good attempts a day. It seems like whenever I finish hanging the draws, a group of 5-6 college students will show up. The stud of the group will hangdog his way up the route by grabbing every draw and then let his buddies hang on top rope for the rest of the day for many hours. None of them have any prayer of redpointing. They grease the holds as they thrash up. Last weekend, I watched a shirtless dude dripping in sweat lean in to the holds as beads of sweat grease key crux edges. I politely sent up a brush with each dogger and ask that they brush key holds for me. Whenever I announce that I will be going for my next attempt in one hour, I have been told, "Oh, Bill, Steve, Mike, Tom, and John were going to get on this route also". After enduring this for awhile, I finally get annoyed to the point that I want to stick cliip the first two bolts, lean my stick onto the route and declare that it is off limits. The only problem is that all my friends want belays elsewhere at the crags so I have to leave. If I want to rest two hours, warm up briefly and then get on for another attempt, I should have the rights to get on. Any thoughts or tips? My experiences from Europe are that if I was French, I would just tie in and start leading and yell at the toproper above me. These groups just don't get the point and these routes aren't gumby routes. Last trip I just cut in and am glad I did. One putz that was putting on his shoes was miffed last trip that I cut in. Our area has over a 1,000 sport routes and the routes are very texture dependent (brushing wise) so I ain't just whining. (although many of the routes I am working have fixed draws year round)

I ice climb a ton and find that in ice climbing, we always let the leader pre-empt the top roper.

Sorry to hear it.

On an unrelated note - a strong partner of mine was just saying how he's noticed that he's kind of turned into an asshole this season and he doesn't like it. He says that he's been projecting a ton, and the kind of focus required does bad things to his personality.

Cheers,

GO


lena_chita
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Oct 31, 2011, 9:13 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

har har. Welcome to the Red.

Oh, I forgot that it was you, not camhead, who had SCAR TISSUE over this experience.


caughtinside


Oct 31, 2011, 10:06 AM
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lena_chita wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

har har. Welcome to the Red.

Oh, I forgot that it was you, not camhead, who had SCAR TISSUE over this experience.

well, it was snoop who really got the shaft. But the behavior was pretty impressive. It seriously was rest at each bolt more than five minutes. Go to the next bolt and repeat, doing each move only when fresh. Then coming down after 30+ minutes, and thinking you have a prayer to redpoint next go.

And predictably hanging on every bolt.


shotwell


Nov 1, 2011, 4:16 AM
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caughtinside wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

har har. Welcome to the Red.

Oh, I forgot that it was you, not camhead, who had SCAR TISSUE over this experience.

well, it was snoop who really got the shaft. But the behavior was pretty impressive. It seriously was rest at each bolt more than five minutes. Go to the next bolt and repeat, doing each move only when fresh. Then coming down after 30+ minutes, and thinking you have a prayer to redpoint next go.

And predictably hanging on every bolt.

On Scar Tissue? There are two hard moves...both at the top!


tH1e-swiN1e


Nov 1, 2011, 6:05 AM
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shotwell wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

har har. Welcome to the Red.

Oh, I forgot that it was you, not camhead, who had SCAR TISSUE over this experience.

well, it was snoop who really got the shaft. But the behavior was pretty impressive. It seriously was rest at each bolt more than five minutes. Go to the next bolt and repeat, doing each move only when fresh. Then coming down after 30+ minutes, and thinking you have a prayer to redpoint next go.

And predictably hanging on every bolt.

On Scar Tissue? There are two hard moves...both at the top!

Id say theres really only 1 at the top and that thing is 11b/c anyway. Shouldve told whoever was hang dogging it to walk right and get on the 11s.


camhead


Nov 1, 2011, 6:11 AM
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tH1e-swiN1e wrote:
shotwell wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

har har. Welcome to the Red.

Oh, I forgot that it was you, not camhead, who had SCAR TISSUE over this experience.

well, it was snoop who really got the shaft. But the behavior was pretty impressive. It seriously was rest at each bolt more than five minutes. Go to the next bolt and repeat, doing each move only when fresh. Then coming down after 30+ minutes, and thinking you have a prayer to redpoint next go.

And predictably hanging on every bolt.

On Scar Tissue? There are two hard moves...both at the top!

Id say theres really only 1 at the top and that thing is 11b/c anyway. Shouldve told whoever was hang dogging it to walk right and get on the 11s.

ELITIST!


lena_chita
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shotwell wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

har har. Welcome to the Red.

Oh, I forgot that it was you, not camhead, who had SCAR TISSUE over this experience.

well, it was snoop who really got the shaft. But the behavior was pretty impressive. It seriously was rest at each bolt more than five minutes. Go to the next bolt and repeat, doing each move only when fresh. Then coming down after 30+ minutes, and thinking you have a prayer to redpoint next go.

And predictably hanging on every bolt.

On Scar Tissue? There are two hard moves...both at the top!

One hard move at the top. And the entire climb is 5 bolts, with a lot of people stick-clipping the 2nd to begin with... That's what made the super-long session so much more ridiculous. I don't know how long snoop waited after we left, but earlier in the day I'd say my observations suggested the progress rate somewhere in the neighborhood of 1ft/minute, or 45 feet in 45 minutes.


hyhuu


Nov 1, 2011, 8:23 AM
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Re: [jensk] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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To the OP: Would you be less pissed if the group put their own draws up leaving your draws at the based of the climb until they are done?


shockabuku


Nov 1, 2011, 11:39 AM
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Re: [shotwell] "Projecting" courtesy? [In reply to]
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shotwell wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
camhead wrote:
lena_chita wrote:


The more common scenario (and no less vexing) is that you let one person get on the route, thinking that a reasonable attempt would take about 30 minutes, approximately the rest time you have in mind, and find out that this person's idea of "one run" on a route involves hanging out at each bolt for 20 minutes, and they feel entitled to spend two hours on the route, regardless of who is waiting...

I can see this as a very Scarring experience. Should I get you a Tissue? [:)

har har. Welcome to the Red.

Oh, I forgot that it was you, not camhead, who had SCAR TISSUE over this experience.

well, it was snoop who really got the shaft. But the behavior was pretty impressive. It seriously was rest at each bolt more than five minutes. Go to the next bolt and repeat, doing each move only when fresh. Then coming down after 30+ minutes, and thinking you have a prayer to redpoint next go.

And predictably hanging on every bolt.

On Scar Tissue? There are two hard moves...both at the top!

Hard is relative.

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