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dagibbs
Nov 23, 2011, 7:12 PM
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jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay
I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer.
I've (personally) had one piece of gear pop during a fall -- but I knew when I placed it that the piece was not solid. So, yes this is evidence of gear failing -- but not of "solid" gear failing.
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jt512
Nov 23, 2011, 10:50 PM
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dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer.
I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid.
Jay
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dagibbs
Nov 24, 2011, 12:56 AM
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jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer. I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid. Jay
Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall?
And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not.
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notapplicable
Nov 24, 2011, 1:08 AM
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jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment. Curt Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment. Well, rangerrob's comment concerned a bolt of unknown origin and quality vs. a solid piece of placed gear. I certainly hope you don't believe that your reply, "because the bolt is more reliable" is always a true statement. Perhaps you didn't mean to be this overly broad. I doubt you really think a 1/4" spinner is more reliable than any well placed nut or cam. Curt First of all, a 1/4-inch spinner isn't of "unknown origin and quality," unless you define "unknown" very narrowly. The fact that it's one-quarter inch and spinning gives us considerable information about its origin and quality. Secondly, it depends what we mean by "solid." If we mean "won't fail," then, by definition, the "solid" piece of gear will be at least as reliable as any bolt. However, I think it's more realistic to define "solid" as a judgment made by the climber預 judgment whose reliability itself is imperfect. In that case, the average "solid" piece of removable protection is less reliable than the average bolt. This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay
I'd say bolts are more "reliable", if for no other reason than the fact that they are truly multidirectional. You can clip em and forget em; the same is most definitely not true for your average gear placement.
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notapplicable
Nov 24, 2011, 1:14 AM
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dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer. I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid. Jay Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall? And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUGHeq3SoI
And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though...
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notapplicable
Nov 24, 2011, 1:18 AM
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notapplicable wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer. I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid. Jay Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall? And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not. And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ854rwQZUI
Ever seen the rock break/crumble around a bolt causing it to fail? No? Yeah, me either. It's happened to me on gear though...
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dagibbs
Nov 24, 2011, 1:27 AM
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notapplicable wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer. I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid. Jay Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall? And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not. And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though...
I generally feel that bolts are more reliable than gear. That wasn't what I was commenting on. Just that "more reports of gear failing than bolts" is not neccessarily evidence for "good gear placements are worse than whatever random bolt you might encounter".
As to zippering up from the bottom -- one of the basic things I was taught, and have read, is that your first piece should be multi-directional, or at least, be able to withstand an upwards/outwards pull, for just this reason.
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bearbreeder
Nov 24, 2011, 1:37 AM
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while nice in theory ... what first piece you can get in is sometimes dictated by the placement options available ... and how hard the climb is at the bottom
sometimes fiddling with an upward pull nut at a low crux is a worst thing than just climbing above yr gear ... the belayer just needs to be spot on
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jt512
Nov 24, 2011, 3:08 AM
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dagibbs wrote: And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not.
That is exactly my point.
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guangzhou
Nov 24, 2011, 9:06 AM
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JT, my point still remain, climbers are trusting people they don't know to place bolts correctly. This may or may not be happening. Sport climbing is still fairly young, and more and more bolts are failing.
I personally trust gear I place, whether a bolt, a nut, or a cam, much more than I trust a bolt placed by someone I never met.
As someone who places both Bolts and Removable gear, I find them both equally safe to climb on. (I never place pitons)
Go out and take a 30 footer on some of quarter inch spinners and let me know the results.
As for knowing where quarter inch spinners came from, or their history, I completely disagree.
While sport climbing in the States, I had two bolts break during a relatively short fall. The route was less than a year old, bolts had no rust. Not sure why they broke, my best guess is the bolts were over torqued when placed. Of course, I'll never know for sure.
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guangzhou
Nov 24, 2011, 9:07 AM
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bearbreeder wrote: while nice in theory ... what first piece you can get in is sometimes dictated by the placement options available ... and how hard the climb is at the bottom sometimes fiddling with an upward pull nut at a low crux is a worst thing than just climbing above yr gear ... the belayer just needs to be spot on
+++++
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guangzhou
Nov 24, 2011, 9:09 AM
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notapplicable wrote: notapplicable wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer. I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid. Jay Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall? And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not. And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though... Ever seen the rock break/crumble around a bolt causing it to fail? No? Yeah, me either. It's happened to me on gear though...
Travel to more climbing areas, you'll see it.
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ajkclay
Nov 24, 2011, 1:02 PM
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shockabuku wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. While well placed gear is as solid as it is built to be I find it hard to believe that trad gear is more reliable than bolts for the average climber. I have to assume that the number of falls taken on bolts is significantly higher than the number taken on gear, but I hear about failed gear placements more often than failed bolts. Maybe trad gear is more reliable than bolts for a well skilled trad climber, but not for everyone. Whether it could be is a different issue.
Ah, but how many bolts have you climbed on that have been placed by newbies?
Not many I'm guessing, so are we comparing like with like?
I would back my bomber placements 100% against an unknown bolt placed years ago by some unknown.
Not all that long ago there was a death here in the Blue Mountains when someone fell on a shiny new bolt placed by people who had no idea what they were doing - the bolt pulled and the rope then sawed across a sharp edge.
Upon inspection several of the other bolts on the route pulled with hand pressure.
Also, if I have placed a piece of gear that is dodgy, I know it is dodgy and look to place another piece as soon as I can. Harder to do on a bolted route wouldn't you say?
So... really? More reliable? Not when you compare like with like.
Cheers
Adam
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ajkclay
Nov 24, 2011, 1:08 PM
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notapplicable wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer. I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid. Jay Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall? And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not. And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though...
Then you have watched some pretty inexperienced climbers - if they had been sport climbing I reckon there's a good chance they would have made some silly errors on sport too.
If you reckon they would have been ok on bolts then maybe this is Darwinism working to weed out the sport climbers who venture into trad climbing 
Cheers
Adam
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rangerrob
Nov 24, 2011, 1:30 PM
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All this discussion has led to the conclusion that tradclimbers have more nuts than sport climbers :)
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notapplicable
Nov 24, 2011, 4:58 PM
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guangzhou wrote: notapplicable wrote: notapplicable wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer. I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid. Jay Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall? And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not. And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though... Ever seen the rock break/crumble around a bolt causing it to fail? No? Yeah, me either. It's happened to me on gear though... Travel to more climbing areas, you'll see it.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it happens significantly less often, making bolt more reliable. Post a video, or even a accident report, of three in a row failing in that manor and I'll reconsider.
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notapplicable
Nov 24, 2011, 5:23 PM
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ajkclay wrote: shockabuku wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. While well placed gear is as solid as it is built to be I find it hard to believe that trad gear is more reliable than bolts for the average climber. I have to assume that the number of falls taken on bolts is significantly higher than the number taken on gear, but I hear about failed gear placements more often than failed bolts. Maybe trad gear is more reliable than bolts for a well skilled trad climber, but not for everyone. Whether it could be is a different issue. Ah, but how many bolts have you climbed on that have been placed by newbies? Not many I'm guessing, so are we comparing like with like? I would back my bomber placements 100% against an unknown bolt placed years ago by some unknown. Not all that long ago there was a death here in the Blue Mountains when someone fell on a shiny new bolt placed by people who had no idea what they were doing - the bolt pulled and the rope then sawed across a sharp edge. Upon inspection several of the other bolts on the route pulled with hand pressure. Also, if I have placed a piece of gear that is dodgy, I know it is dodgy and look to place another piece as soon as I can. Harder to do on a bolted route wouldn't you say? So... really? More reliable? Not when you compare like with like. Cheers Adam
Ok, lets compare like with like.
nOOb bolt VS. nOOb gear = Total crap shoot. Chances of injury or death are high in both cases.
Bolt placed by someone experienced in the craft VS. Gear placed by someone experienced in the craft = Bolt being more reliable, hands down. The are truly multidirectional and have strength ratings twice that of your average piece of gear.
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curt
Nov 24, 2011, 7:28 PM
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jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: guangzhou wrote: jt512 wrote: rangerrob wrote: I agree with you there Gonzo. I always wonderd why people place more trust in a bolt that was placed by some unseen person at some unknown time in some unknown fashion, than a soldi piece of gear they placed themselves. Because the bolt is more reliable. HTH Jay Not really true actually. I think people are scared because they lack self confidence in their own placement. A well placed nut is bomber, a solid cam is too. X is "solid" is poorly defined, and does not imply that X is as reliable as Y. Statistically, it is evident that bolts are more reliable than removable protection. Jay Of course, that has very little to do with rangerrob's original comment. Curt Well, it was a response to Guangzou, not rangerrob. My response to rangerrob had a lot to do with rangerrob's comment. Well, rangerrob's comment concerned a bolt of unknown origin and quality vs. a solid piece of placed gear. I certainly hope you don't believe that your reply, "because the bolt is more reliable" is always a true statement. Perhaps you didn't mean to be this overly broad. I doubt you really think a 1/4" spinner is more reliable than any well placed nut or cam. Curt First of all, a 1/4-inch spinner isn't of "unknown origin and quality," unless you define "unknown" very narrowly. The fact that it's one-quarter inch and spinning gives us considerable information about its origin and quality...
Funny, but that would be my exact description of a 1/4 inch spinner. I probably wouldn't know anything at all about it's origin and (most importantly) I wouldn't have any idea if it would hold my fall. I hardly think that is a narrow definition of "unknown."
Curt
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jt512
Nov 24, 2011, 8:01 PM
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guangzhou wrote: JT, my point still remain, climbers are trusting people they don't know to place bolts correctly.
And experience has unequivocally shown that they are justified. The rest of the drivel you posted isn't worth responding to.
Jay
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caughtinside
Nov 25, 2011, 1:15 AM
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The whole 'trust x more than y' debate is pretty silly. You get what you get.
If there is a bolt there, hopefully its good and hopefully it's not near a solid gear placement. It's not like you get to choose on a route to clip a bolt or a solid piece. What you trust 'more' is irrelevant. You'll either climb above the bolt/gear or you won't.
Minor anecdotal evidence: I have fallen on one piece of gear I thought to be 100% solid and it blew. A friend was pinkpointing on gear I put in and then reset with no rope tension, fell on a cam I thought was bomber, and it blew and broke the cam. It was a link.
I have only fallen on one 1/4" bolt placed in 1985 by known hardmen. It was a good swinging fall and I nearly pooped with fear, but it held. I returned to replace that bolt and two others like it on the route and they were a bitch to remove.
So who cares what you trust more, cam, nut or bolt. You get what's available. If you climb above it you had better know what you are doing.
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guangzhou
Nov 25, 2011, 1:49 AM
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Unequivocally shown they are justified, how exactly?
Simon Carter rebolted a routes in the Blue Mountains after bolts failed. If I remember correctly, all the bolts were bad when he went up and inspected them. I assume that's the route referred to above by another post.
A guide at New River a couple months ago fell on a route that was less than a month old, two bolts pulled from the rock, under a roof.
In both cases, the bolts were placed in correctly.
Let have a look at Bolts in Krabi and see how safe bolts are? Yes, some are being replaced with Tatanium, but on my visit there three months go, 123 wall had three new routes, all roughly 5.9 with shinny new stainless steel wedge bolts. The route will be useless in less than a year, chances of a climber getting hurt on it will be very high.
I personally broke bolts that were over-torqued, two in the same fall.(I think over-torqued) From watching people bolt, I am guessing many of the bolts on sport routes are over-torqued.
Broken bolts happen. Bad gear placement happen too, but when I place a piece a piece, I know whether it will hold or not. I can count on one hand how many of my pieces have pulled in a fall, including the two broken bolts. The bolts, I was sure were good, the two pieces, I knew were bad when I placed them, assessed the risk, and decided I was ok.
I trust my gear because I know how to place it, how to inspect the placement. I trust bolts in general, but I never assume they are 100% because I didn't place them and I can truly inspect them.
Someone above mention placing gear in soft rock and having it crumble. My response, it's soft rock, of course it will crumble.
Do climbers place removable gear incorrectly, sure they do, but I don't climb on people incorrectly placed gear. Dopeople place bolts incorrectly, sure they do, and if I want to climb the route, I have no choice but to clip the badly placed bolt. One I can inspect, the other I can't.
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ajkclay
Nov 25, 2011, 4:07 AM
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notapplicable wrote: *snip* Ok, lets compare like with like. nOOb bolt VS. nOOb gear = Total crap shoot. Chances of injury or death are high in both cases. Bolt placed by someone experienced in the craft VS. Gear placed by someone experienced in the craft = Bolt being more reliable, hands down. The are truly multidirectional and have strength ratings twice that of your average piece of gear.
I feel this is a perspective from the sport climbing paradigm; the question is do you trust it 100%?
Answer: Yes.
If I place a piece of gear and judge it to be bomber I know that there is no doubt that it is going to be holding whatever kind of fall or weighting that is likely to occur.
Not every piece needs to be multi-directional, and - shock horror - not every piece needs to be bomber, what is bomber is my entire system when I am climbing - and that is the crux of the matter, sport is not trad and the sport "paradigm" of rating, absolute strength and being multi-directional does not apply to trad gear because so much of the system is different.
Plus if you are falling hard enough to break a bomber stopper or cam you have bigger fish to fry in the internal damage stakes.
Trad gear does not need to be placed with the intention of it being there for hundreds of ascents, clips, etc. Corrosion is not a problem,, and neither is the thought that someone else has placed it.
When I clip a piece of fixed trad gear I inspect it to work out whether I should be backing it up, trusting it or removing/chopping it. How often does this happen on a sport route? Every time a bolt is clipped? No way.
When I place a piece of my own gear I am evaluating it, the next section of the route and potential placements further on and communicating to my belayer about it.
So, like with like:
Would I trust a bomber bolt placed by an experienced bolter to catch me? Yes.
Would I trust a bomber piece of trad gear placed by me or an experienced trad leader to catch me? Yes.
Would / do I regularly take big falls on both? Yes.
Do I fall on trad gear or bolts more out in the big outdoors? Trad.
Have I ever been surprised by a bomber piece pulling? No.
I have two recent examples of gear pulling and people decking for which I have very good knowledge about. One is the Blue Mountains incident (also mentioned by ghangzou), it was bolts and the climber died. The other was on trad, gear placed by an inexperienced climber who also fell and decked... he walked away with a sore ankle. Guess why. He was climbing a trad route and had placed a TON of bad gear, a lot of which ripped, but in the process it slowed him and when he hit the deck from 18 metres he had slowed considerably.
In all honesty, sport is not trad and vice versa, many of us crossover and understand that outside of this forum where we are taking one stance or the other that climbing is inherently a safe sport. The stories of gear pulling (bolts/trad gear) resulting in fatality or injury is in the realm of whispers - it happens, but rarely and the common factor is almost always pilot error.
I go back to my earlier post which I think is more on topic and that is you can become confident in placing and falling on trad gear to the same level of confidence that you observe sport climbers exhibiting on bolts, you just need the experience in placing and falling on it.
Please don't take offence to any thing here, none was intended, I actually think that this crossover of ideas and attitudes is really interesting as the answer is somewhere there in the middle - with things to be learned from all disciplines. You know I also think that a good climbing head comes from bouldering/DWS (taking falls with no rope) and soloing (no falls and no rope mindset) and employ all to help me climb in my best frame of mind :)
Cheers
Adam
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ajkclay
Nov 25, 2011, 4:12 AM
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Registered: May 9, 2002
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tequilaboom wrote: Thanks again for the replies everyone. People are right, maybe trad is not for me. However, even taking into account my fear of falling and fear of the unknown (as someone pointed out correctly), I still keep coming back to trad climbing, and putting myself in these situations. Every time I'm about to make an iffy move, or place pro that I think may not hold, I tell myself: "never again!" but when I succeed in these climbs I just find myself in love with trad once again. I do appreciate the personal accounts - they help me out a lot - and that is why I ask questions on these forums.
Check your inbox - messaged you, there are plenty of things you can do to overcome these issues
Cheers
Adam
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ajkclay
Nov 25, 2011, 10:34 AM
Post #74 of 75
(6723 views)
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Registered: May 9, 2002
Posts: 1567
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notapplicable wrote: guangzhou wrote: notapplicable wrote: notapplicable wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: dagibbs wrote: jt512 wrote: This is evident by the number of bolt failures vs gear failures we hear about容ven more so, as someone observed, when we consider that far fewer falls are taken on gear than bolts. Jay I don't think that is valid evidence -- we do, I agree, have a lot more reports of gear failing than bolts -- but what we don't have (generally) is whether that failed gear was thought to be "solid" by the placer. I think that when someone is climbing above gear, they fall 30 feet, ripping out 3 pieces of gear, and hit the deck, that they are pretty surprised to learn that their gear was not solid. Jay Without talking to the person/people in question, I don't know. Did they know the gear was iffy, so they placed several pieces hoping one would hold? Or did they know the pieces were iffy, but not expect to fall? And, if they placed three pieces they thought were solid, and had all three fail, it suggests they may not actually be good at evaluating whether a gear placement is solid or not. And the question is about "reliability". Have you ever seen bolts zipper when the belayer stands too far back from the wall? No? Yeah, me either. I've watched it happen to gear though... Ever seen the rock break/crumble around a bolt causing it to fail? No? Yeah, me either. It's happened to me on gear though... Travel to more climbing areas, you'll see it. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm saying it happens significantly less often, making bolt more reliable. Post a video, or even a accident report, of three in a row failing in that manor and I'll reconsider.
http://www.onsight.com.au/.../37/report-follow-up
There ya go :)
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rtwilli4
Nov 25, 2011, 11:49 AM
Post #75 of 75
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Registered: Feb 14, 2008
Posts: 1867
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Apart from guangzhou, how many of you have actually fallen on a bolt only to have it fail? It forever changes the way you think about fixed pro.
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