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dr_feelgood


Jan 8, 2013, 7:58 PM
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Re: [jbone] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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jbone wrote:
People like Hitler "Force" change.

I wouldn't say MLK "Forced" anything, rather he lobbied for equality based on reason.

Your in Germany eh? Would have figured this would be pretty clear in your neck of the woods.

Look, I know you are probably too busy cutting holes in your pillowcases, polishing your jackboots, and jerking off to the latest pamphlet from the creativity movement, but I figured I would chime in. I don't hold high hopes of you reading this, as it will probably contain polysyllabic words.

You present numerous logical fallacies in your overall argument that reflect your antiquated and myopic view of the world. To say that Hitler forced change is (aside from the clearly Godwinian repercussions on JoyTrip's innocent thread... RIP) to say that change only comes via exclusive intolerance, racism, patriarchy, and blind allegiance to the state. That sounds to me like the regressive change favored by fascists and the occasional deluded monarchist.

jbone wrote:
Your in the dark if you think I'm the only one who thinks this way.

I understand that you fit well into the category of outspoken racist. I'm sure you cheer every time you see the Arizona cops hassle a "non-white" for their papers. You, and by extension, your defenders, are perfectly happy with the economic apartheid that currently dominates the United States. JoyTrip's article was not "poor me" journalism, as it focused on the adventure gap of outdoor sports by highlighting the economic gaps and historical experiences that keep people of color out of the recreation community. Keep dreaming of your monoculture lily white nation.

jbone wrote:
jbone wrote:

I wouldn't say MLK "Forced" anything, rather he lobbied for equality based on reason.
I said that... long before I was accused by idiots of being a racist I complimented the civil rights movement and its leader. I have not and do not wish ill will on any person or living thing, and to insinuate otherwise is asinine.

This doesn't sound very not-all-that-racist or even maybe-just-casually-racist. Nor is it terribly complimentary to a man who was assassinated for challenging the system of violent, legal, state sanctioned racial apartheid that dominated the American empire of the twentieth century. MLK may have been one of the key factors that prevented the boiling racial tension of the 1960s from becoming far more violent than it was.

MLK, 4 April 1967, Riverside Church, New York City wrote:
My third reason moves to an even deeper level of awareness, for it grows out of my experience in the ghettoes of the North over the last three years -- especially the last three summers. As I have walked among the desperate, rejected, and angry young men, I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through nonviolent action. But they ask -- and rightly so -- what about Vietnam? They ask if our own nation wasn't using massive doses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today -- my own government. For the sake of those boys, for the sake of this government, for the sake of the hundreds of thousands trembling under our violence, I cannot be silent.

And, to the douchecanoes who were defending our stalwart fascist: the rhetoric which spewed from his hateful fingers and on to our computer screens deserves no defense. It is an antiquated and thinly veiled call for violence based on skin pigmentation and economic means. Dynosore's completely uncited statistics merely perpetuate the malignant stereotypes that enable de facto discrimination. I, for one, would really like to see where he got them from.
dynosore wrote:
Black men commit interracial rape at over 30x the rate of white men. Over 50% of crimes committed by blacks are against whites, while white criminals chose black targets in less than 3% of cases. Over 90% of blacks voted for Obama. Tell me who's racist. Might want to lay off the PC koolaid.
The first statistic is a clear attempt at miscegenation-based fear-mongering. The second speaks to the economic means of the minority communities in the US. I highly doubt many white criminals are going to go to the economic peripheries where the black populations live to rob them if there is a drastically reduced payoff in comparison to robbing the rich white folks up the hill. And the third, completely unrelated statistic is merely an attempt to equate those who vote for a more progressive agenda with criminals and dependents. All of the aforementioned statistics are strongly skewed to portray people of color as racist against their benevolent white fathers. As if the myth of the paternal slaveholder persisted beyond the end of legalized slavery.

Any behavior or rhetoric that masquerades as free speech while attempting to deprive a substantial portion of the population of their rights as human beings and members of society is extremely hypocritical, and should be exposed for what it is: racist, classist, sexist, exclusionist, and violent. To tolerate such behavior is beyond reproach.


ObviousTroll


Jan 8, 2013, 8:27 PM
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Re: [hannah.wolfmom] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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hannah.wolfmom wrote:
A person of color or anybody from an underrepresented group can make a call to address racism, and to encourage inclusion in a community. Unfortunately, more often than not the community who hears said person spends a huge amount of time and energy addressing the racist, sexist, and just plain mean opinions of some asshole. Doesn't it say something that instead of hearing a person of color on an idea they have to address the whiteness of climbing, Jbone and ObvTroll call them a bunch of names, question their methods, say a bunch of ignorant shit? Why is it so threatening to them? OBVIOUSLY our society has a lot of work to overcome racism, sexism, classism, anti-queer sentiment, and just for attempting to overcome these situations, people jump on them. That's one tool of oppression; somebody tries to change something and overcome power imbalances, and people of the dominant group attack them, and attempt to discredit them with ignorant beliefs.

I think especially JBone's comments cross the line more towards harrassment than just "voicing one's opinion", like he keeps claiming he is doing. But seriously, go wash some dishes or fall in a 12 foot hole, or do anything besides making a person feel unwelcome, who is making a concerted effort to address racism, and to stand up for herself.

So Joytrip, thank you! Thank you! Thank You! Thank you! I wish we could spend more time being supportive, and focusing on the voices of people of color, and not just letting them get drowned out as we attempt to deconstruct racist ideas. The deconstruction is entirely necessary, but I also want to take some space and time to appreciate an attempt to create more visibility of people of color who climb.

Fuck yes. I'm glad someone is doing something. :) :)

I've just successfully crossed into the twilight zone. You fucking idiot. Quote me where I say
In reply to:
...ObvTroll call them a bunch of names


ObviousTroll


Jan 8, 2013, 8:36 PM
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Re: [ObviousTroll] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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Here's your recap Hannah, all I ever did was say "calm down the guy isn't being racist," and you're over here saying I'm calling names. Ok so maybe I called the geek a geek, or said fat people are fat and dumb people are dumb. But I'd rather be called, or call those people by what they are then go all bonsai and call them a "FUCKING RACIST"

ObviousTroll wrote:
Also, what is up with the thread being titled "calling all climbers of color" and then asking specifically for black climbers? I'm not saying anything by this, except that it's goofy and odd.

ObviousTroll wrote:
camhead wrote:
...THIS BLOG RIGHT HERE YES CLICK it YOU FUCKING RACIST.

Seriously, leave and don't come back until you've read the entire site.

Oh, and if Hitler-like tactics could help you learn proper spelling and use of apostrophes, I say bring on the final solution, douchebag.

Oh whoa dude, you just lost many points in my book. Your response was way out of line.

ObviousTroll wrote:
camhead wrote:
PeteF wrote:
To put it in perspective, how would an "African-American" feel if they saw the following advertisement in Sports Illustrated: Wanted, 100m sprinter for photo-shoot. MUST be caucasian, people of any color need not apply.

Yeah, that would be terrible. Especially because whites have been so oppressed after blacks colonized, captured, enslaved, and raped them all while setting up an entire world system for 300+ years that assumed black superiority and white inferiority.

Oh, wait, no, my bad, that didn't happen. STFU.

Dude....


ObviousTroll


Jan 8, 2013, 8:43 PM
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Re: [ObviousTroll] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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ObviousTroll wrote:
...just because we don't like a particular aspect that is stereotypically true of a certain group doesn't mean we also go into every scene with a predisposition to hate them already. When you grow up you'll get it.

Forgot to add that in too. Try telling me that I'm in fact just a closet racist, and I need the internet to tell me the truth. I'll be sure to tell that to my black coworker (whom I work with in close proximity of a truck every day.), see what he has to say about it.


(This post was edited by ObviousTroll on Jan 8, 2013, 8:49 PM)


ObviousTroll


Jan 8, 2013, 8:46 PM
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Re: [ObviousTroll] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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And last salvo before I go;

It's remarkable to me that people are attempting to convince me that I'm a racist. Or if not trying to convince me, they are purposefully skewing what I say, (be it in defense of your self proclaimed racist Jbone) in order to make me into a racist as well. Remarkable.


jbone


Jan 8, 2013, 9:01 PM
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Re: [dr_feelgood] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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Your another judgmental diva who reads a thread on the internet then think you know everything there is to know about a person. I don't pretend to know you nor do I care to. When your done fantasizing about how people are and actually take the time to know them you may get a clue.

But... Since your from Montana and were making broad based assumptions of who the poster from the given state must be I will assume you live out in the middle of Montana making assault weapons in seclusion. Your connected to the internet although you hate technology as it provides prying eyes for the government into your daily routines. But you couldn't handle not knowing what people in the civilized world are saying and thinking for fear that they will rise up and take everything you have for themselves?

Come on, how close am I? This is the way the media portrays the average Montana resident so it must be right, Right?

So I totally understand how you could interpret my collective posts in the accuracy you have proved here now. Somebody should give you a job judging people so you can contribute to the betterment of mankind, your obviously a genius among the rest of us idiots.


carabiner96


Jan 8, 2013, 9:07 PM
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Re: [jbone] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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jbone wrote:
Your another judgmental diva who reads a thread on the internet then think you know everything there is to know about a person.

jbone wrote:
Since your from Montana and were making broad based assumptions of who the poster from the given state must be I will assume you live out in the middle of Montana making assault weapons in seclusion. Your connected to the internet although you hate technology as it provides prying eyes for the government into your daily routines. But you couldn't handle not knowing what people in the civilized world are saying and thinking for fear that they will rise up and take everything you have for themselves?
Oh yeah, you nailed it.


(This post was edited by carabiner96 on Jan 8, 2013, 9:08 PM)


ObviousTroll


Jan 8, 2013, 9:14 PM
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Re: [ObviousTroll] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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Actually I'm not finished. I ask you to read this:

In reply to:
"I just look at myself as a pretty average amateur mountaineer," she said in an interview. "The things I climb are the things that people climb. Some are technical, sure, but nothing spectacular.... I climb because I like to climb..."

This is a quote from Sophia Danenberg, from the article. The first Black Female to summit Everest. Even Sophia states that she doesn't care what the world thinks of her being an African American female, and first to summit. That's because it doesn't matter.

Then some douche with fancy vocabulary and grammar skills goes out and writes an article exploiting a simple fact. The simple fact that Black people just aren't that into going out into the mountains and playing in the snow. That what there is currently isn't good enough for him! Well what is this? Who cares that the majority of climbers aren't Black. If they want to go out and climb they will, but apparently they don't want to. Why push it?

It's the pushing that bothers guys like Jbone. Jbone just simply stated that by silhouetting the agenda, you're creating more hostility. And he's absolutely right. Whether you want to blame all of the hostility on me, or blame it on guys like Camhead for totally blowing his top, the fact is that the article was placed in a "hot spot" so to say, and it did what Jbone said it would do.

Some of you people really don't understand what it is to be racist. And those people add a whole lot of drama to an otherwise civil debate. Anybody that can without a doubt say that I or Jbone are racists, please let me know as soon as you can so I can take your internet advice and inform my black friends and coworker that I'm sorry for judging them.


(This post was edited by ObviousTroll on Jan 8, 2013, 9:23 PM)


hugepedro


Jan 8, 2013, 9:44 PM
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Re: [jbone] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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jbone wrote:
Your another judgmental diva who reads a thread on the internet then think you know everything there is to know about a person. I don't pretend to know you nor do I care to. When your done fantasizing about how people are and actually take the time to know them you may get a clue.

But... Since your from Montana and were making broad based assumptions of who the poster from the given state must be I will assume you live out in the middle of Montana making assault weapons in seclusion. Your connected to the internet although you hate technology as it provides prying eyes for the government into your daily routines. But you couldn't handle not knowing what people in the civilized world are saying and thinking for fear that they will rise up and take everything you have for themselves?

Come on, how close am I? This is the way the media portrays the average Montana resident so it must be right, Right?

So I totally understand how you could interpret my collective posts in the accuracy you have proved here now. Somebody should give you a job judging people so you can contribute to the betterment of mankind, your obviously a genius among the rest of us idiots.

Interesting. But you're still a racist. I knew it when you characterized an article that offered some interesting insights from a perspective different from your own (race) as "poor me journalism". It's the same motivation that causes some to use the term "white guilt" to dismiss advocacy for equality. Poor me journalism, white guilt, but I have black friends, reverse discrimination - those terms all come from the same place.

Your comment seeks to diminish and discredit the article (and a sizable chunk of American history in the process). Why? Because it threatens or shines light on part of you that you either don't like (consciously or sub-consciously), or worse, a part of you that you're comfortable with and are willing to act out on in order to suppress the voices of people who are different from you. The rest of us non-racists have no need for any such silliness. We can read the article and consider the points within on their merit alone - we are not threatened.

Your choices now are to examine your internal motivations and either work to change, or embrace them and shop for a white hood, or further bury your self-awareness in layers of illusion so you don't have to confront those dark places in yourself. Have fun with all that.


jbone


Jan 8, 2013, 9:53 PM
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Re: [hugepedro] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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hugepedro wrote:

Well at least you're not self-aware, because people that are racists and know it, are sociopathic assholes. Whereas, people like you are just ignorant douche-nozzles. Congratulations!

Well take it to your level pedro..

"takes one to know one.."


Gmburns2000


Jan 9, 2013, 2:15 AM
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Re: [ObviousTroll] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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ObviousTroll wrote:
Actually I'm not finished. I ask you to read this:

In reply to:
"I just look at myself as a pretty average amateur mountaineer," she said in an interview. "The things I climb are the things that people climb. Some are technical, sure, but nothing spectacular.... I climb because I like to climb..."

This is a quote from Sophia Danenberg, from the article. The first Black Female to summit Everest. Even Sophia states that she doesn't care what the world thinks of her being an African American female, and first to summit. That's because it doesn't matter.

Then some douche with fancy vocabulary and grammar skills goes out and writes an article exploiting a simple fact. The simple fact that Black people just aren't that into going out into the mountains and playing in the snow. That what there is currently isn't good enough for him! Well what is this? Who cares that the majority of climbers aren't Black. If they want to go out and climb they will, but apparently they don't want to. Why push it?

It's the pushing that bothers guys like Jbone. Jbone just simply stated that by silhouetting the agenda, you're creating more hostility. And he's absolutely right. Whether you want to blame all of the hostility on me, or blame it on guys like Camhead for totally blowing his top, the fact is that the article was placed in a "hot spot" so to say, and it did what Jbone said it would do.

Some of you people really don't understand what it is to be racist. And those people add a whole lot of drama to an otherwise civil debate. Anybody that can without a doubt say that I or Jbone are racists, please let me know as soon as you can so I can take your internet advice and inform my black friends and coworker that I'm sorry for judging them.

for posterity


camhead


Jan 9, 2013, 7:40 AM
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Re: [jbone] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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jbone wrote:
Your [sic] another judgmental diva ...

Oh, cool, you're a sexist, too.


Partner happiegrrrl


Jan 9, 2013, 7:40 AM
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Re: [Gmburns2000] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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In reply to:
And those people add a whole lot of drama to an otherwise civil debate.

But this thread WAS NOT INTENDED to be a "civilized debate."

It was a person putting the word out for a CASTING CALL, and it was immediately hijacked. "Civil debate" - bull shit.


By the way, I hear the ad will be shot in Alaska, and it is for a major beer company. Whomever gets the job should contact Alex Honnold for advice on getting paid appropriately(as I assume he has been managing his commitments well, financially, since they seem to be becoming more frequent).


hannah.wolfmom


Jan 9, 2013, 7:52 AM
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Re: [ObviousTroll] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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If you need to know just one way in which you are being racist, besides attacking someone's good faith effort to try and improve the racial disparity in the climbing community, look up the word "apologist" in the dictionary. And while you're at it, look up "power dynamic", and then adjust your analysis of "reverse racism". Oh, and keep your mouth shut, because you're upsetting a lot of other people every time you talk.

oh yeah, and if you are craving some actual intellectual discourse like you say you do, read some actual papers on why your opinions might be racist. Although you said you read the alpinist article, a few things you said made me think you didn't actually read it. At the risk of doing your research for you, This might be a good starting point:
http://www.deanza.edu/faculty/lewisjulie/White%20Priviledge%20Unpacking%20the%20Invisible%20Knapsack.pdf
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2009/04/02/derailing-for-dummies/
http://everysquareinch.blogspot.com/2006/12/deconstructing-racism.html


I'm done. These assholes are really just trying to bait others. If they can't reflect on their behavior on their own, or maybe get a clue to listen to others, I'm over it. I don't have to stand in line for their bullshit.

Now, please don't accuse me of being over-educated, leave me alone. Seriously.


lena_chita
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Jan 9, 2013, 8:03 AM
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Re: [ObviousTroll] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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ObviousTroll wrote:
Actually I'm not finished. I ask you to read this:

In reply to:
"I just look at myself as a pretty average amateur mountaineer," she said in an interview. "The things I climb are the things that people climb. Some are technical, sure, but nothing spectacular.... I climb because I like to climb..."

This is a quote from Sophia Danenberg, from the article. The first Black Female to summit Everest. Even Sophia states that she doesn't care what the world thinks of her being an African American female, and first to summit. That's because it doesn't matter.

Then some douche with fancy vocabulary and grammar skills goes out and writes an article exploiting a simple fact. The simple fact that Black people just aren't that into going out into the mountains and playing in the snow. That what there is currently isn't good enough for him! Well what is this? Who cares that the majority of climbers aren't Black. If they want to go out and climb they will, but apparently they don't want to. Why push it?

You are completely missing the point of the article.

Here is the thing: sure, black people are absolutely free to climb if they want to. But BEFORE YOU CAN WANT something, you have to be exposed to it. And right now, due to cultural, economical, etc. circumstances, the African-American kids are under-exposed to such things. THIS is what the author is explaining in his article and this is what we all should be trying to change.

My daughter would have never decided that she wanted to try gymnastics, or skiing, or climbing, or violin playing, if she wasn't exposed to the idea that these were potentially fun activities that she could do. Some of those things she tried and decided she didn't care for, some of them she liked and continued to pursue.

It is all about opportunity. You give people equal opportunity, equal exposure to things, you give them a sense that things are possible -- and THEN it is up to them to pursue an activity, or not. Right now, while that opportunity is equal on paper, it is not equal in reality.


ObviousTroll wrote:
Some of you people really don't understand what it is to be racist. And those people add a whole lot of drama to an otherwise civil debate. Anybody that can without a doubt say that I or Jbone are racists, please let me know as soon as you can so I can take your internet advice and inform my black friends and coworker that I'm sorry for judging them.

What YOU don't seem to understand is what it is like to be on the receiving end of racism (or other discriminatory behaviors). You might not go around spewing N word, and you might even "have some black friends and co-workers" (congratulations!), but you come across as racist in this thread.

You want an example of a racist statement?

here is one:

ObviousTroll wrote:
The simple fact that Black people just aren't that into going out into the mountains and playing in the snow. That what there is currently isn't good enough for him! Well what is this? Who cares that the majority of climbers aren't Black. If they want to go out and climb they will, but apparently they don't want to. Why push it?

You don't care WHY black people are "that way", and you say that you don't care, even when a black person tells you that it is something to consider.

Who cares that there is such discrepancy? Well, some people who had paused to consider the reasons behind it do. But you apparently believe that black people are just made that way. That their race (instead of exposure and opportunity) somehow determines whether they would ever want to climb, or ski, or play in the snow. That is a classical racist attitude.

Here's newsflash for you-- black kids like snowball fights and sledding on neighborhood hill just as much as white kids. But snowball fights and trash can lids are free, or easy to get. Skiing and climbing aren't.


dr_feelgood


Jan 9, 2013, 8:26 AM
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ObviousTroll wrote:
Here's your recap Hannah, all I ever did was say "calm down the guy isn't being racist," and you're over here saying I'm calling names. Ok so maybe I called the geek a geek, or said fat people are fat and dumb people are dumb. But I'd rather be called, or call those people by what they are then go all bonsai and call them a "FUCKING RACIST"

ObviousTroll wrote:
Also, what is up with the thread being titled "calling all climbers of color" and then asking specifically for black climbers? I'm not saying anything by this, except that it's goofy and odd.

ObviousTroll wrote:
camhead wrote:
...THIS BLOG RIGHT HERE YES CLICK it YOU FUCKING RACIST.

Seriously, leave and don't come back until you've read the entire site.

Oh, and if Hitler-like tactics could help you learn proper spelling and use of apostrophes, I say bring on the final solution, douchebag.

Oh whoa dude, you just lost many points in my book. Your response was way out of line.

ObviousTroll wrote:
camhead wrote:
PeteF wrote:
To put it in perspective, how would an "African-American" feel if they saw the following advertisement in Sports Illustrated: Wanted, 100m sprinter for photo-shoot. MUST be caucasian, people of any color need not apply.

Yeah, that would be terrible. Especially because whites have been so oppressed after blacks colonized, captured, enslaved, and raped them all while setting up an entire world system for 300+ years that assumed black superiority and white inferiority.

Oh, wait, no, my bad, that didn't happen. STFU.

Dude....
So I have a few serious question for you. Why did you object to Camhead's first statement, specifically, what do you consider way out of line?
Second question- given that Camhead was using the history of colonialism and chattel slavery as an example to highlight the heritage of oppression of people of color within the United States, why did you consider this statement to be too far? If you want to provide well documented counter examples in an attempt to disprove the existence of European and Anglo-American colonialism as well as the institution of chattel slavery, feel free to do so. Maybe check up on some holocaust denial websites for some pointers in constructing your argument.
I anxiously await your response.


(This post was edited by dr_feelgood on Jan 9, 2013, 8:26 AM)


Partner cracklover


Jan 9, 2013, 9:08 AM
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Re: [lena_chita] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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lena_chita wrote:
ObviousTroll wrote:
If they want to go out and climb they will, but apparently they don't want to. Why push it?

You are completely missing the point of the article.

Here is the thing: sure, black people are absolutely free to climb if they want to. But BEFORE YOU CAN WANT something, you have to be exposed to it. And right now, due to cultural, economical, etc. circumstances, the African-American kids are under-exposed to such things. THIS is what the author is explaining in his article and this is what we all should be trying to change.

My daughter would have never decided that she wanted to try gymnastics, or skiing, or climbing, or violin playing, if she wasn't exposed to the idea that these were potentially fun activities that she could do. Some of those things she tried and decided she didn't care for, some of them she liked and continued to pursue.

It is all about opportunity. You give people equal opportunity, equal exposure to things, you give them a sense that things are possible -- and THEN it is up to them to pursue an activity, or not. Right now, while that opportunity is equal on paper, it is not equal in reality.

Actually, I think the boneheads AND smart folks like Lena are missing something. It's not just about exposure, it's advertising. Whether you like it or not, advertising uses subtle cues to change people's views, and it works. That's why companies spend billions of dollars on it.

So of course the bonehead argument quoted at the top of my post is as silly as saying "If people wanted to eat McDonalds, they would just do it, what does advertising have to do with it?"

But even the argument Lena (and others) have made misses the point that it's more than just neutral exposure, it's a proactive attempt to change views. And (IMO) that may be a good thing in this case if it gets more black people to feel connected to the idea that wild places and adventure is something they can be a part of.

GO


lena_chita
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Jan 9, 2013, 9:49 AM
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Re: [cracklover] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
lena_chita wrote:
ObviousTroll wrote:
If they want to go out and climb they will, but apparently they don't want to. Why push it?

You are completely missing the point of the article.

Here is the thing: sure, black people are absolutely free to climb if they want to. But BEFORE YOU CAN WANT something, you have to be exposed to it. And right now, due to cultural, economical, etc. circumstances, the African-American kids are under-exposed to such things. THIS is what the author is explaining in his article and this is what we all should be trying to change.

My daughter would have never decided that she wanted to try gymnastics, or skiing, or climbing, or violin playing, if she wasn't exposed to the idea that these were potentially fun activities that she could do. Some of those things she tried and decided she didn't care for, some of them she liked and continued to pursue.

It is all about opportunity. You give people equal opportunity, equal exposure to things, you give them a sense that things are possible -- and THEN it is up to them to pursue an activity, or not. Right now, while that opportunity is equal on paper, it is not equal in reality.

Actually, I think the boneheads AND smart folks like Lena are missing something. It's not just about exposure, it's advertising. Whether you like it or not, advertising uses subtle cues to change people's views, and it works. That's why companies spend billions of dollars on it.

So of course the bonehead argument quoted at the top of my post is as silly as saying "If people wanted to eat McDonalds, they would just do it, what does advertising have to do with it?"

But even the argument Lena (and others) have made misses the point that it's more than just neutral exposure, it's a proactive attempt to change views. And (IMO) that may be a good thing in this case if it gets more black people to feel connected to the idea that wild places and adventure is something they can be a part of.

GO


No, I am not missing it, and I agree with you. I see it as a separate but related subject.


ObviousTroll


Jan 9, 2013, 10:29 AM
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Posts: 89

Re: [happiegrrrl] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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happiegrrrl wrote:
In reply to:
And those people add a whole lot of drama to an otherwise civil debate.

But this thread WAS NOT INTENDED to be a "civilized debate."

I'm not the one that started debating though hg. I'm the one that was trying to keep things civil by telling camhead he's out of line for "proclaiming" a man is racist. But when I see how quickly other people will try to bring me into being a racist just for keeping a neutrality in the debate it became fun for me to make cheap remarks at them. And after several cheap remaks it became obvious to me that people actually have themselves convinced I am a racist.

So when I'm dealing with stupid and asinine white people I just take more pleasure in drawing out their patience. Fuckin' cracker.


ObviousTroll


Jan 9, 2013, 10:58 AM
Post #96 of 154 (2177 views)
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Re: [hannah.wolfmom] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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hannah.wolfmom wrote:
If you need to know...

I won't quote your whole post but I just wanted to let you know all I had to say after I read it was "lol"

lena_chita wrote:
ObviousTroll wrote:
Actually I'm not finished. I ask you to read this:

In reply to:
"I just look at myself as a pretty average amateur mountaineer," she said in an interview. "The things I climb are the things that people climb. Some are technical, sure, but nothing spectacular.... I climb because I like to climb..."

This is a quote from Sophia Danenberg, from the article. The first Black Female to summit Everest. Even Sophia states that she doesn't care what the world thinks of her being an African American female, and first to summit. That's because it doesn't matter.

Then some douche with fancy vocabulary and grammar skills goes out and writes an article exploiting a simple fact. The simple fact that Black people just aren't that into going out into the mountains and playing in the snow. That what there is currently isn't good enough for him! Well what is this? Who cares that the majority of climbers aren't Black. If they want to go out and climb they will, but apparently they don't want to. Why push it?

You are completely missing the point of the article.

Here is the thing: sure, black people are absolutely free to climb if they want to. But BEFORE YOU CAN WANT something, you have to be exposed to it. And right now, due to cultural, economical, etc. circumstances, the African-American kids are under-exposed to such things. THIS is what the author is explaining in his article and this is what we all should be trying to change.

My daughter would have never decided that she wanted to try gymnastics, or skiing, or climbing, or violin playing, if she wasn't exposed to the idea that these were potentially fun activities that she could do. Some of those things she tried and decided she didn't care for, some of them she liked and continued to pursue.

It is all about opportunity. You give people equal opportunity, equal exposure to things, you give them a sense that things are possible -- and THEN it is up to them to pursue an activity, or not. Right now, while that opportunity is equal on paper, it is not equal in reality.


ObviousTroll wrote:
Some of you people really don't understand what it is to be racist. And those people add a whole lot of drama to an otherwise civil debate. Anybody that can without a doubt say that I or Jbone are racists, please let me know as soon as you can so I can take your internet advice and inform my black friends and coworker that I'm sorry for judging them.

What YOU don't seem to understand is what it is like to be on the receiving end of racism (or other discriminatory behaviors). You might not go around spewing N word, and you might even "have some black friends and co-workers" (congratulations!), but you come across as racist in this thread.

You want an example of a racist statement?

here is one:

ObviousTroll wrote:
The simple fact that Black people just aren't that into going out into the mountains and playing in the snow. That what there is currently isn't good enough for him! Well what is this? Who cares that the majority of climbers aren't Black. If they want to go out and climb they will, but apparently they don't want to. Why push it?

You don't care WHY black people are "that way", and you say that you don't care, even when a black person tells you that it is something to consider.

Who cares that there is such discrepancy? Well, some people who had paused to consider the reasons behind it do. But you apparently believe that black people are just made that way. That their race (instead of exposure and opportunity) somehow determines whether they would ever want to climb, or ski, or play in the snow. That is a classical racist attitude.

Here's newsflash for you-- black kids like snowball fights and sledding on neighborhood hill just as much as white kids. But snowball fights and trash can lids are free, or easy to get. Skiing and climbing aren't.

The bold sections in the quoted post above are what the following comments are referring to.

You think I've never been on the receiving end of racism? Strike one.

You think Black people don't have the equal opportunity to go out into the woods as white people? Strike two. If anything in that is true it's just simply because culturally they don't want to. Do you wear traditional middle eastern clothing? No because it's not culturally accepted for you to do, so you just don't do it. It's not because you're not exposed to it, it's just simply because you don't care for it.

You think that I ever said that I think Black people wouldn't do these things because of their skin color??? Your outta here. You fucking judgmental bitch. How dare you accuse me of being racist.

Hey when you learn to read Lena, go back and read all of my posts, and then use that quote function you love so much to capture what I said and prove I'm racist.


amarius


Jan 9, 2013, 11:07 AM
Post #97 of 154 (2171 views)
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Posts: 98

Re: [JoyTrip] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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Why hasn't this been moved to the Soap Box by moderators?

Or, perhaps, another forum aptly named "Bicker and Banter" should be created - here is what it looks on a different discussion board


ObviousTroll


Jan 9, 2013, 11:17 AM
Post #98 of 154 (2162 views)
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Posts: 89

Re: [amarius] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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amarius wrote:
Why hasn't this been moved to the Soap Box by moderators?

Or, perhaps, another forum aptly named "Bicker and Banter" should be created - here is what it looks on a different discussion board

Amarius, Lena_Chita & Co. will assure you that the nature of their posts serve a much higher purpose than just simple bicker and banter. They are indeed on a hunt to find any and all racists and convert them to fully functional forum users here on RC.com Wink


camhead


Jan 9, 2013, 11:24 AM
Post #99 of 154 (2150 views)
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Posts: 20656

Re: [ObviousTroll] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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ObviousTroll wrote:
You fucking judgmental bitch.

Hmm... so, the two folks in here that got called out on here for being racially insensitive also are quick to use gendered insults like "diva" and "bitch" as soon as a female tells them the same thing that males are telling them?

It's just got to be a coincidence.


camhead


Jan 9, 2013, 11:35 AM
Post #100 of 154 (2143 views)
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Re: [camhead] Calling all climbers of color [In reply to]
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camhead wrote:
ObviousTroll wrote:
You fucking judgmental bitch.

Hmm... so, the two folks in here that got called out on here for being racially insensitive also are quick to use gendered insults like "diva" and "bitch" as soon as a female tells them the same thing that males are telling them?

It's just got to be a coincidence.

Like, seriously, someone calls you out for being ignorant and vitriolic, and you respond by being ignorant and vitriolic?

That's like those Islamic fundies who got so mad about the Danish cartoon portraying them as violent bombers that they responded by being violent bombers.

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