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misha
Jan 28, 2003, 6:25 AM
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hey kalcario i hope some ripped muther%@#$ing boulder cuts you asshole. If you had some nuts i would rip them off. I dont give fuk if you've climbed the nose, that means nothing when it comes to bouldering. Bouldering is real climb, the most pure form possible, eliminate all gear and it is just you and the rock. not hooks, hammers, daisy chains or ascenders.
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freehueco
Jan 28, 2003, 6:44 AM
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Some dimbulb wrote:
Uhh...climbing since 70's, bouldered tons all over western U.S., 4 trips to Hueco between 84 and 89, usually in the company of some of the luminaries of our sport, in addition to 3 El Cap routes and thousands of pitches of trad climbing, would never dream of limiting myself to just sport climbing...basically done it all so don't label me either. Just feel sorry for all the kids who are new to the sport and who had the misfortune to buy into the current bouldering fad and who will never become real climbers.
The fact that you have tried boldering and still don't see it as climbing proves that you are either hopeless( perhaps a few too many stones have knocked your melon?), or just plain dumb.
How can you say that you have climbed at the center of the universe, and not see bouldering as climbing?
I too have tried it all( well, not big wall yet), and I still prefer boldering. If it's not real climbing, why is it such good training for "sport" climbing? It sure feels the same, and offers far more exposure than clipping a friggin' bolt at your waist.
And who says there is no danger in bouldering? I sprained my ankle yesterday in a fall( broken hold( in Yosemite of all places)).
Deal with it. Boldering rocks.
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hongkongstuey
Jan 28, 2003, 9:04 AM
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Just feel sorry for all the kids who are new to the sport and who had the misfortune to buy into the current bouldering fad and who will never become real climbers.
fads come and go - who's to say that these 'kids' won't be hauling their arses up El Cap in a year or two - certainly not you
as for the chipping thread this started out as - its bad, don't do it, if you want a manufactured artificial route, go to the gym!
[ This Message was edited by: hongkongstuey on 2003-01-28 01:04 ]
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spandexomo
Jan 28, 2003, 1:41 PM
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karaoke is bent cuz he's old and sux now and all the young kids are hiking $#!& he didn't even think was climbable. it sux getting old doesn't it karaoke. no more real interest in sport climbing, the crags are all abused and dirty and drilled out. the sport you were so proud of is being replace by bouldering. you have nothing to talk about or have in common with the younger generation, because you're an old, boring, chipping tool. it must suck to be like an old rusty bolt, way past your prime. you made the wrong decisions, and now your just a total loser trying to stand by your loser convictions on a forum full of gumbies no less. if you actually believed in the validity of your extinct sport you'd be happy the crags were less crowded and the kids were into pulling down and tweaking out on $#!& you can't touch. but no, you're a sore old man that's jealous of the youth and has resorted to belittling the sport you now have no chance of making an impression on unless you go around chipping $#!&. gill did all the v4's a long time ago old man. too bad for you your life is over and you suck.
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mustclimb69
Jan 28, 2003, 2:45 PM
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chipping is wrong, glueing is wrong. I also think bolting is a sensitive topic but i can justify their purpose.
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lox
Jan 28, 2003, 3:09 PM
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Spandexomo...
I cannot decide what is funnier... your name or what you just wrote.
You rock.
LSHMFH !!!111
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dingus
Jan 28, 2003, 4:42 PM
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Quote: And yet, it's been argued that, "intent does not matter". Foothold or crowbar, if the block or flake or whatever gets pulled off, the cliff face is still being altered in a way.
I make the same distinction that many others do... the line is drawn with the use of tools. If you can simply knock the rock off with the palm of your hand or a kick or whatever... and the area ethic (and the potential of bystanders) allows for it, I'm willing to call that "cleaning" in the sense used in this thread.
If that "loose" rock takes a crowbar to pry out, THAT is chipping. I don't care WHY it is chipped, the fact remains it was chipped. I'd like someone to demonstrate the fallacy of that position.
Intent... don't go that route! Consider another quote from Ament's History of Free Climbing in America. The following is an experpt from an interview with Alan Watts, Smith Rock sport climbing pioneer who helped to usher in, even led the parade for a while, of rap bolted sport climbing. The subject is the prep of the route "Chain Reaction"...
Alan Watts: "I drilled a new anchor 30 feet above the roof and for the first time peered over the lip of the roof. There was a pillar of loose rock percariously balanced just above the lip, so I kicked it off - and there was a big, flat jug underneath! Encouraged, I dropped down a little further and pulled off another loose chunk right at the lip. To my amazement, there was was a perfect, incut, four-finger edge!"
The interview goes on to discuss the landmark first ascent of this climb. I am not criticizing Mr. Watts in the least. I have no voice in the matters that went down at Smith in the 80's. But back to that intent thing... did he kick those rocks off to make a potential route safer... or did he kick them off to see what was beneath? I can no more peer into his mind than anyone else. But from his own words it appears he was mightly pleased with what he found, suggesting that the "intent" was not to make the route more pleasurable or enjoyable or safer (filing an edge on a sharp mono-pocket makes a boulder problem more pleasurable and safer and is unarguably chipping, by the way...), but to make it go in the first place.
Pretty interesting stuff.
DMT
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karma274
Jan 28, 2003, 8:00 PM
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When I say safer, I am referring to risk of serious injury or death due to loose blocks, not risking a big flapper or a cut on your finger tip.
Furthermore, smith rocks, I have heard, is notorius for having a layer of chossy stuff covering the solid stone underneath. Watts tried ground up bolting, but he kept pulling stuff off, so decided to rap bolt and clean the climbs. I see no problem with him getting rid of the loose stuff you posted about. Besides, if what you said was meant literally, he "kicked" the stuff off. Thats not cleaning with tools, so in that case you should be ok with it.
I think intent DOES figure into the equation. Of course this is my opinion, but I don't go sport climbing for the risk and thrill, I go to have a good time and climb on the rocks that are in as natural of state as possible, to the degree of not being hazardous or exceptionally dirty. I see where everybody is coming from with the no use of tools stance, I just think that if something is obviously about to come off, and you can't completely get it off with your bare hands or toothbrush, then get rid of it with something else.
Just my opinion. I will try to refrain from pleading my case anymore.
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dingus
Jan 28, 2003, 8:18 PM
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Quote: Furthermore, smith rocks, I have heard, is notorius for having a layer of chossy stuff covering the solid stone underneath.
Precisely to my point about local ethics. Other areas are notorious for having large expanses of blank stone for that matter!
Quote: Watts tried ground up bolting, but he kept pulling stuff off, so decided to rap bolt and clean the climbs.
Chris Jones introduced the idea of "bouldering" on the lead there, an early name for rap bolted sport climbing and Alan Watts took it from there.
Quote: I see no problem with him getting rid of the loose stuff you posted about. Besides, if what you said was meant literally, he "kicked" the stuff off. Thats not cleaning with tools, so in that case you should be ok with it.
Whether I am OK with it (or not) is not particularly relevant. I am by the way, OK with it. I don't care if he chiseled them off either. But this 'how many chippers can dance on the head of a chisel' semantics dancing drives me nuts. You hear these anti-chippers howl their outrage, and then tap dance away from the line when you ask, but what about "x", where x = a modified route they like or approve of.
For what its worth, I respect an anti-chipping ethic, I really do. I am most interested in preserving the climbing legacy we have been fortunate enough to realize. And not chipping is a great way to behave in the vast majuority of climbing areas with which I am familiar. It's just that often the purity of the theory gets degraded a bit when some of these climbers get on the stone.
Happy to continue to discuss and exchange ideas...
DMT
Quote: duh!
[ This Message was edited by: dingus on 2003-01-28 20:44 ]
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sprocket
Jan 28, 2003, 8:28 PM
Post #60 of 67
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Dose any one know of POCKETS??
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boulderingmadman
Jan 29, 2003, 4:18 AM
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dingus--it seems as if were pretty much in agreement. i definately draw the line at using tools, but i am not about to tell someone else what they should do at "their" area.
karma--"I just think that if something is obviously about to come off, and you can't completely get it off with your bare hands or toothbrush, then get rid of it with something else."
i would agree with this depending on the area the climb is in. if it is a place where the route will be well traveled by experienced climbers and gumbies alike, if it was approved by the land managers (i would prefer if they would do it, if it was my crag), i would say go for it. it still better thank gluing and bolting it back on, IMHO.
if it was a lonely alpine ascent that only the best will ever attempt, i say leave it be. let the best take as much of a risk and make as big of a commitment as the first party. in which case, who would know if the FA party pryed loose a few death blocks or not? wouldnt really matter because the next party would find more.
spandexomo--thats the funniest $#!& ive seen on here in awhile...
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karma274
Jan 29, 2003, 6:23 AM
Post #62 of 67
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I agree madman. If its an alpine ascent then keep it really natural.
My eye doctor, in a small town in MN, was best friends with Alan Watts back in the heyday.
One day he asked me what I like to do for fun, I said climbing. He asked if I had ever heard of Smith rocks, I said yes. They he started telling me about Watts and i was like "damn".
Good story eh?
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v10gripper
Jan 29, 2003, 7:03 AM
Post #63 of 67
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Registered: Jan 11, 2003
Posts: 35
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kalcario, i have a challenge for you come to josh with all your buddies who "sit" on the sport crags and laugh at us pad people i invite you to boulder with me in josh i will put all of your mistinterpitations of bouldering down with one problem, false up 40 will kill yuou if you fall from the top.
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kalcario
Jan 29, 2003, 2:34 PM
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*false up 40 will kill yuou if you fall from the top.*
No it won't.
think I've done that one-Cap Rock, laybacking, right? Onsighted the all washed up same day, but that one was easier then (mid 80's) because holds have broken, I believe...
you see I've actually done tons of bouldering but I would never limit myself to just that, nor would any real climber
me arguing with teenagers about bouldering is like an english prof debating Dr Seuss with 6 year olds
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boulderingmadman
Jan 29, 2003, 4:45 PM
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let me start by saying that very few (if any) of the boulderers i know around here strictly boulder. nothing pleases me more than roping up and climbing, sometimes. tuolomne is waaaaay too close to limit myself to small stones.
but i have to know, kalcario--when are you gonna answer some of the legitimate questions posed to you earlier? re: sharma, graham, rands, loh, gill, etc...
[ This Message was edited by: boulderingmadman on 2003-01-29 08:46 ]
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zzsean
Jan 29, 2003, 5:14 PM
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kalcario
I have these vague memories of a similar line of argument a few years ago....
"Sure he might climb really well in climb competitions and indoors, but that is just a fad and means nothing when it comes to "real" climbing..." (paraphrased)
Now that goofy kid who used to be amazing at climbing competitions has done just one or two things that are *world freaking* class. You might have heard of him ? I heard he put up a decent route at Ceuse recently ? Oh, I think he likes bouldering a little as well!
Kalcario, pull you head out of your ass, stop having issues with teenagers cranking hard on small rocks and just accept that Boulder is and has always been a legitimate form of climbing.
3 times up El Cap ? I thought you called yourself a climber!
Idiot.
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spandexomo
Jan 29, 2003, 7:49 PM
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"I have read the letters on ClimbxMedia.
This guy Joe Hedge is an old aquaintance of mine. We used to call him "Homo Joe" back in the day.
He was (and I quote directly) "too good to climb with you, but not good enough to climb with Kauk and Werner".
TOOL!
Now he travels from Redondo Beach to Central KY to climb routes that we put in 10 years ago.
He is too "fragile" to bolder."
AHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!!
AH ha!
ha!
HAHAHAHHHAHAHHAHAH!!!!!!!!
haha!
hah!
HAHAHAHAHHAH!!!!
homo joe!
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