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twospoons
Jan 22, 2003, 8:19 AM
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Hello
My question is, when using natural anchors like trees and rocks to set up a top rope, would 3 points be the least? Also how would you typically equalize the load on the anchors - like which knots or equipment? Would using alpine butterflies, and simple overhands for tape do the trick?
I know it would vary from situation to situation, but is there a general idea?
thanks
spoons
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duskerhu
Jan 22, 2003, 8:58 AM
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The general idea is to have a minimum of 3 pieces to your anchor (peices meaning protection devices). Whether those pieces are a boulder tied off, a tree, a cam, a nut, a hex, or whatever else you might have, you need 3 pieces...
If you only have one tree, well, thats not the most ideal situation. You need to find (read ->be creative) 2 other ways to set pieces. If there are NONE, that better be a super bomber tree! And then tie it off with 3 different peices of webbing.
To equalize it, first extend each peice of pro to the edge (or near the edge) of the route/cliff. Use a cordalette or webbing to connect and then use an overhand or figure 8 to create your powerpoint tie in.
I assume you're new to climbing so please find an experienced climber to show you these concepts... DO NOT go out tomorrow and just try and set something up! I have purposely left a lot out here because explaining the entire process and reasons and theories behind them would take more time than I have to spend right now.
Go to the library or bookstore and get some books and do some reading about climbing and anchors. And then find someone experienced to take you out and show you "hands on"...
Live Free!
Play Hard!
Climb On!
duskerhu
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twospoons
Jan 22, 2003, 9:25 AM
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thanks for the info
and dont worry, i wont be trying it myself any time soon - i dont have a deathwish
i just wanted a general idea, cos i dont really know anyone who climbs, and i've read a couple of books, but they dont go into a great deal of detail
thanks again!
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womble
Jan 22, 2003, 9:47 AM
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Everything you want from a theory point of view can probably be found in "Climbing Anchors". It's _very_ useful... much more comprehensive and reliable than any advice you're likely to pick up in a forum.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0934641374/qid=1043228342/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/103-0061222-7361422?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
That said, you ask for general guidelines so I'll throw in my opinion: Go for at least two bomber anchors, equalised. I find slings more useful than using climbing rope as it doesn't stretch and is very cheap.
I just re-read my post. I'd go for three, two if one of them was something huge.
[ This Message was edited by: womble on 2003-01-22 11:05 ]
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lazide
Jan 22, 2003, 1:41 PM
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Slings can also be left behind, and I know I don't cry nearly as much when I get sap all over $2.50 worth of tied slings as I do over my shiny (less so now ) new rope.
You should always have, as an absolute minimum 2 pieces of bomber gear. 3 is by far preferred.
However, if you have a well rooted tree with diameter large enough it takes you and three friends touching each others fingers to encircle it, you can probably get away with two slings around it. (that way you have redundant slings)
Be aware of anchoring to large blocks this way though - it is amazing how little it can take to move them sometimes, and you can generate some amazing forces in some falls.
Some pieces of natural pro you are better of just not using - what happens when that 1 ton teetering block falls off, and is tied in nice and securely into your anchor matrix?
JL's 'Anchors' and 'More Anchors' are both good books, with Anchors focusing more on general theory and how to set proper natural gear, and 'More Anchors' focusing more on critical thinking about the redundancy and strength of all sorts of random anchor setups.
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stevematthys
Jan 23, 2003, 3:53 AM
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3 anchor points is said to be the minimum, but more often then not if you are rappeling off a multi pitch trad route that has natural anchors, the anchor will only be a tree, mabye backed up by a horn. at least thats the way that natural anchors appear in eldo
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cracklover
Jan 24, 2003, 3:09 AM
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"My question is, when using natural anchors like trees and rocks to set up a top rope, would 3 points be the least? "
With many excetions, yes.
Also how would you typically equalize the load on the anchors - like which knots or equipment?
Equipment - climbing strength carabiners, including two locking 'biners at the anchor-point (where the rope goes through), and enough 1-inch tubular webbing or cordelette or _static_ (this is important) rope to create the anchor.
Would using alpine butterflies, and simple overhands for tape do the trick?
Knots - no, the simple overhand and the butterfly knots are not appropriate for setting up a toprope anchor. The most commonly used knots are the water knot (for webbing) and the double or triple fishermans (for rope and cordelette).
I know it would vary from situation to situation, but is there a general idea?
I'm sorry, but while setting up a toprope is not rocket science, there are simply too many variables to go into here. Buy a good book (like the John Long book on Anchors) and do a little research to find a nearby guide. Setting up a TR is very serious - if you do it wrong you can (and people have) died. It's easy to do right, but again, you're not going to learn how on this board.
Best of luck,
GO
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curt
Jan 24, 2003, 3:22 AM
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twospoons,
Unfortunately, the answer to the question you ask requires subjective judgement on the part of the person setting up each anchor.
There are many times when one tree--all by itself--will be just fine for an anchor. In cases like this, I will still try to run completely independent (redundant) webbing from the tree to the locking carabiner(s) at the top of the climb.
However, it takes much experience to know which situations fall into that category, and when 2 or 3 or more anchors are needed. In the absence of experience, make sure you "over do" it and put in more pieces than may actually be required--err on the side of caution.
Curt
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apollodorus
Jan 24, 2003, 3:34 AM
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A "tree" might be a smallish one with spindly roots that go weakly down into a crack filled with dirt, and not be a very good anchor. So, you'd need some other pieces as backup.
Then again, a "tree" could be a totally bomber, giant one that couldn't be pulled out with a Sikorsky Skycrane helicopter. You'd only need three slings around it to qualify for three pieces.
The same goes for flakes and horns. If the flake or horn is totally bomber, your backup pieces can be other slings around it. If not, you need to use something else for backup.
Three slings around a weak tree or flake is ONE piece, not three (the anchor can break).
One sling around a bomber tree or flake is NOT enough (the sling can break).
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topher
Jan 24, 2003, 3:36 AM
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ok yes you should have three points, but its also very commen and acceptable to use to 3/8 bolts, or one yes thats right one big solid tree. the thing with using trees is that shure its a good iead to have more then one, but if one pulls you know have a huge tree falling on top of you, so if one tree fails you got problems. this doesnt mean go use small trees, but if there is a big, like 4 foot around cedear at the top one is fine!
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misha
Jan 24, 2003, 3:43 AM
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wtf? you need a tree big enough that three friends have to encircle it? that is the stupidest piece of advice i've ever heard. That tree would be effin huge. are you calling that the minimum requirment? you would need 25+ feet of slings.
You rc.commers are such uptight "leader must not fall" precautionaries. You overdo everything. Dont listen to this guys, safety is important but you don't need to be anchored to the back of a semi. A simple 2 foot diameter tree will suffice.
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flying_dutchman
Jan 24, 2003, 3:57 AM
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hell, a six inch diameter tree would hold plenty well but i usually look for some one footers to set up an equalized anchor.
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curt
Jan 24, 2003, 3:57 AM
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misha,
This is the problem I have with threads such as this one. Please go back up the page and re-read my post. You have made a generalization here that is false, and could potentially get somebody killed, although I am sure this was not your intent.
My main point was that good judgement is required to know what is good and what is not good in an anchor. And further, this good judgement will come from experience. You catagorically say that a 2 foot diameter tree is good enough.
What if the tree is dead?
What if its root are exposed?
What if it is at the absolute edge of the cliff--and leaning outwards?
A two foot (or one foot) diameter tree may well be fine by itself--but it also may not. This was the essence of my earlier post.
Curt
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misha
Jan 24, 2003, 4:04 AM
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curt, i understand that your much more experienced than me, but many people need to get a clue. It doesn't take a 40 year bigwall veteran to figure out that that 2 inch sapling isn't gunna hold. People need to make some friends and go climbing instead of posting on some internet forum.
also, i was commenting on lazides post and not on yours (wich i fully agree with).
[ This Message was edited by: misha on 2003-01-23 20:06 ]
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redpoint73
Jan 24, 2003, 2:09 PM
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My, its getting a little steamy in here.
I think the previous post about the 4 people encircling the tree was an exaggeration to stress the point that you should not use 1 anchor unless it is bomber, expecially if several people are toproping. Thats all.
I understand misha's point. Most of us that are more experienced have rappelled from single, smallish trees. But the risks were known and accepted, and based on our persinal experience and judgement. Beginners don't have advantage. This being a beginner forum, people are just trying to give advice accordingly. I think most of us learned to be over-cautious as beginners, then trimmed down our techniques to be more efficient as we became more experienced.
I HAVE seen some less skilled folks with some scary top rope setups - one anchor was a single Tri-cam, another anchor had a sling around a piece of rock that I could have easily moved by kicking it. If a climber takes some information away with them after reading these forums, and subsequently avoids getting injured or killed, I think that some good was done.
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brutusofwyde
Jan 24, 2003, 11:23 PM
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There used to be two 4" oak trees atop the second pitch of Steck Salathe' on the Sentinel in Yosemite Valley.
The trees were the belay anchor, and many rap slings indicated their use as rap points as well.
The fourth time I climbed the route, the trees were gone. Not only were the trees gone, but the belay ledge atop the second pitch was gone as well.
There is a tree atop the rim that serves as an anchor for the Tyrolean from the tip of Lost Arrow Spire. Many parties use only this tree as their sole anchor point. Use of a second tree, further away, as a backup, means that your 50m rope may not reach across the Tyrolean.
Another "tree" (more of a half-dead oak bush) atop the 7th pitch of Half Dome Reg. NW Face serves as the primary belay anchor, backed up by an old pin or two. It will fail one of these days.
The point of all this rambling is that each situation is different. Health of the tree, type of soil, depth of soil, distance from the edge, whether the roots go into any cracks all have a bearing on the use of the anchor. If there are no cracks for the roots, trees are generally very shallow rooted at the tops of cliffs due to the shallow soil depth found in these areas.
As a general rule, to which there are exceptions, tying off as close to the roots as possible to reduce leverage, and including as many stems as possible, increase your chances of survival.
Hope this helps!
Now back to the sauna.
Brutus
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kindredlion
Jan 25, 2003, 12:19 AM
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Thanks Brutus, Curt and Tom, you saved a couple of folks some typing....
Brutus, Curt and Tom may agree, that there really is only one constant rule....
Everything is Situational
Sorry to sound like a broken record..
Take Air,
Adam
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marks
Feb 1, 2003, 10:12 AM
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it depends on how good the gear is.a sling around a boulder will not go anywhere so that will normally do but if its dodgy i will put 2 or 3 in.although i have absailed on a nut 2.if you can use slings as these are bomb proof.
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