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awsclimber
Jan 27, 2003, 10:30 PM
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Alot of the ethics debates I've seen recently end in people just respecting local ethics. I don't want this to turn into yet another to bolt or not to bolt debate, but isn't saying respect the local ethics a copout. Take it to the extreme, its like saying that the south was justified in having slaves because of their location and that it was accepted at the time? There are obviously many other examples of instances where the ethics of the time were later changed.......thoughts?
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lox
Jan 27, 2003, 10:53 PM
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Ok... "local ethics" is not a fixed thing.
Local ethics are a set of guidelines that a localized climbing community develops over time. Since this is a separate entity than a person or person's individual ethic, it CAN change...
Even if you are actively trying to change that local ethic, you have to respect it. You can't just walk into the local climbing club meeting and tell them all that their bolting practise is stupid and crappy and expect them to take you seriously.
You cannot chop bolts or remove hangers and expect people to respect your views.
And sometimes, even if you MOSTLY agree with local ethics, you might have an individual ethic which is different...
How you deal with that discrepancy is a true test of character...
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mreardon
Jan 28, 2003, 12:43 AM
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Registered: Jun 17, 2002
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Put five climbers in a room together and all you will walk out with is five different opinions. Climbers never agree on anything, and basically all we're arguing is harder, and possibly more dangerous ways to get up the rock.
Yes there should be some consensus, but at the same time this is a subjective test at best with very little objectivity. Local ethics at one area may dictate no bolts and only highball bouldering or natural protection topropes. Another may disagree with the safety issue on that and decide to bolt a sport lead over a highball that went. Who's ethics are correct? Neither. It's a rock, and there's an easier way up.
One area may allow chipping, another refuses any tools whatsoever. Another justifies gluing because it's a "classic" that should be preserved. Again, who's ethics do you follow? None of them work for all areas.
At best, what we can and should agree on, is that whoever put the route up first decides the manner in which others can choose to follow. If this means you have to toprope what another bouldered/soloed, then that is your right, but you should not impose your standards on the first ascentionist's right and drill bolts. And this goes with an area as a whole.
If an area is sport, then let it be sport. If an area is trad, then let it be trad. But if we do not at least agree to let an area decide on the ethics via general consensus by the locals who will live every day by those rules, then who's judgement is so infallible that we all must be subjected to it? There is no one that worthy. Only yourself.
Local ethics dictate. Carpetbaggers can state their opinions, but do not have the right to enforce their views on the locals.
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drector
Jan 28, 2003, 1:15 AM
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Registered: Aug 27, 2002
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You should only respect the local ethics if you feel they are similar to your own. I mentioned this in another forum on ethics but I'll say it again: I will not repect the local ethics if the local ethic is racist.
Now climbing is nothing like racism but my point is that there are local ethics and there are global ethics.
This makes me think about some state suing another state because the other state has crappy polution laws and the polution just blows across the border into the plantiff state. The defense is that polution control is a state issue but it sure doesn't seem to be to the plantiff.
Too much gray area here so I will respect more strict ethics than my own whenever possible and try to sway those who "less" ethics (less = different and contrary to my own).
Dave
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bouldertoad
Feb 1, 2003, 8:54 AM
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Registered: May 26, 2002
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Ethics ......the age old debate..just don't do anything that would piss you off if you developed a crag. There are certain things thought that should never be done...chipping etc...
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boulderingmadman
Feb 2, 2003, 2:22 AM
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Registered: Sep 14, 2002
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i wont respect local ethics if they seem to be less in line with my of thinking, for lack of pissing someone off . if the locals of an area participate in practices i dont approve of, that is their right. i wont contribute to it, i wont participate in it, save of clipping a bolt thats there already, and if asked for my opinion, i wont hesitate to give it. but i certainly wont preach my ethics elsewhere.
i will "enforce", for lack of a better word, strict ethics in my local areas whenever possible to do so. im always pleasant about it, unless ive reason to be otherwise, and ive never really had a negative response if i make the approach in a respectable manner.
but like anything else, the ethics of an area are going to change with the evolution of the area itself. through developement and exposure, areas will go through different "needy stages" where the ethics will come into question, and probably be altered to fit the situation. its called growth. when its you and 2-3 other people climbing in an area, its super easy to be low impact. as more people start coming, and they will if its a decent area, more "strict" ethics, or more variety of wthics will need to be adopted.
without change and devlopement, no area will last long. and without change and improvement, ethics of an area will deteriorate beyond the point of return.
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tanner
Feb 2, 2003, 3:03 AM
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Registered: Apr 28, 2002
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Is in not normal ethics to say don't bolt cracks that are well protected cracks and to only bolt faces or slabs. I think thats standard all over.
Trad routes still can have bolts!
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