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flamingfeet17
Jun 3, 2003, 2:15 PM
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After you lead climb a route and clip into the chains do you just rappell down and clean the quickdraws off as you are rappelling down?. And then after you are on the ground what do you do to get the anchor on the top down or does the second person just TR the route?
Thanks
Andrew
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timpanogos
Jun 3, 2003, 3:19 PM
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As they say - there is a 100 ways to skin a cat.
First of all - Ethically - you should never be lowered off of a set of chains - because of the wear on the chains. So - question is will others in your group want to TR the route, or maybe lead it on their own? i.e. will the leader be rappelling off the chains in the first place?
Some routes can be hard to clean on rappel (overhanging and traversing) If you have to clean a route like this on rappel - clip a QD from your harness to the lead line on the pro side - so that as you rappel down, you will be pulled into the pro. This can be a real problem once you get to the pro, as it may be loading the pro with your body weigth in funcky angles that will make it real hard to clean the piece.
If you are intentionally TR'ing and so setup your own gear on the chains - then you can let the 2nd clean - if you go leave your own gear on lower out on it - then yes, someone is going to have to succesfully TR the route, setup rappel on the chains and clean the anchor.
If TR'ing and the route is traversing - key pieces should not be cleaned so that if the TR climber falls they do not pendulum to the anchor horizontal, but to a piece of pro horizontal that is reasonable. The 2nd will typically clear the rope, leaving the QD on a piece as such, and then reset it on lowering out if others will be TR following:
Chad
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jt512
Jun 3, 2003, 8:57 PM
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In reply to: First of all - Ethically - you should never be lowered off of a set of chains
That is incorrect, but I'm tired of correcting people on this subject. Do a search for one of the 20-something posts by either me or kalcario on this subject.
-Jay
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drkodos
Jun 3, 2003, 9:20 PM
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In reply to: First of all - Ethically - you should never be lowered off of a set of chains - because of the wear on the chains. Chad
What do ethics have to do with this?
Chains are there to be used for this and other purposes. Lowering from chains is fine. Hollow aluminum rings, on the other hand.....
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astone
Jun 3, 2003, 9:23 PM
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You just get your junk the heck off the route!
Hope this helps...
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tenn_dawg
Jun 3, 2003, 11:47 PM
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In reply to: You just get your junk the heck off the route! Hope this helps...
Hell. Get your junk the HELL off the route!
Just correcting Gramma errors as I see um'.
Travis
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timpanogos
Jun 4, 2003, 5:35 AM
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Well I did not bother reading 20 posts but found this one
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...order=asc&highlight=
The thread starts out very strongly, by multiple people, over and over - that they just hate seeing those links eaten half way through from lowering.
Ok, maybe Ethics was the wrong word here - Where I was taught, it's a lazy - selfish bugger who lowers off chains instead of rapping them.
In the referenced thread above - JT quotes a single guide book - the quote given seems to contradic itself - and you state that it's the FA's responsibility to replace the worn links? Do you really believe that? - Wow, if the initial bolting cost was not enougth for you - the lifetime responsibility to replace tr links for lazy people is a real bummer.
In the same thread - jt promotes rapping as safer and preferred to lowering - so what is it that you are saying? Is your argument simply that I should not have used the word ethics? Or should everyone just simply lower (but rap if you feel like it, as it is preferred) but not to worry - the FA will surely fix the problem soon.
Lame.
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drkodos
Jun 4, 2003, 7:04 AM
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I'll reply.
It's not lame.
The use of the word ethics is a mis-use. That's all. It's not a question of ethics. Ethics are defined as a code of nehaviors. There is no code with regard to what to do with chain links.
It is more a question of physics.
On many of the anchors I have set-up, the entire purpose was to provide safe and conveinient access to an anchor from which to lower, rappel or even Top-rope from. Yes, toproping from the chains. That is their purpose!
If links are that worn out from such heavy use (and I've never seen it), what is the problem with the local community that lets it get to that state of affairs?
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redpoint73
Jun 4, 2003, 11:08 AM
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In reply to: Yes, toproping from the chains. That is their purpose!
Toproping through the chains isn't against the law or anything, but you really should TR through your own draws. If for no other reason, it just gets better equalized - especially if there are not chains per se, but quick clips, shuts, etc. The whole anchor/ring/chain wear issue has been done to death. But if several people are going to TR, doing it through the chains is sheer laziness!
Everytime there is a thread regarding cleaning a bolted anchor there are always a bunch of replies saying "never lower from the chains". Those people have OBVIOUSLY never climbed a severely overhanging route. I suppose you can have the last person TR the route and clean the draws, but that means someone has to TR everytime you do a route like that. And thats a bit ridiculous.
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timpanogos
Jun 4, 2003, 1:23 PM
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Jay, sorry about the strong reply - I was surprised as I don't think I've ever seen you say anything I did not agree with. I had to go read what you had to say about it. Anyway - I've learned a lesson here - never use the work Ethics, as it's like using the word Morality, in a church and state context. - I assume we are on the same page (you rap your routes right?)
Dennis, I'm confused - why would severely overhung stuff lead someone to prefer lowering over rapping to clear a sport lead anchor? That is what you are saying right?
Often times, severely overhung routes have a edge towards the top near the anchor, where your rope has a single point of contact with the rock - in aid, you will typically duck tape the heck out of these types of edges if you were jugging this line. If you were to lower out over an edge like this - your are going to grate your lead rope over this edge for the distance of the lower out.
Even if the anchor allowed for a totally free hanging rope from it's powerpoint - why do you say that someone who would promote rapping this has never done it before? I don't see any difference here. And yes I have rapped some wild overhangs (Lost Arrow, City of the Rocks for example - Anchor - 2', single point of contact on lip -AIR - sure as hell would NOT want to lower off that one)
Chad
P.S.
Yea, like Ambler said below - I forgot - the MAJORITY of the sports routes (5.9 and lower - I'm a gumby) in BCC, LCC and Rock Canyon in Provo have there lowest links so warn down that I typically build my anchor in the second, or higher links up - because they scare me. So those darn FAs in SLC/Provo are just not doing their jobs here!
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ambler
Jun 4, 2003, 1:48 PM
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In reply to: If links are that worn out from such heavy use (and I've never seen it), what is the problem with the local community that lets it get to that state of affairs?
This seems to be a real enough problem in Owens Gorge, or it was the last time I visited there some years back. On some popular routes like Gorgeous, the anchors had been sawn a quarter of the way through, or more, by abrasion from gritty ropes. No doubt it varies with the local geology, the heaviness of use, and the quality of the anchor materials. But the reason that some of us argue against lowering/toproping directly from the anchors is that we have seen the damage; it ain't just a theory. Keeping track of and replacing worn-out anchors puts quite a burden on somebody, and in between replacements it means that some anchors are getting progressively less safe. Why not use lower-impact methods (toprope through your own biners; last person raps) when we can?
It's a matter of degree, like everything. There are times and places where it's safer or just much better to lower off the anchors -- for example to clean gear on an overhanging route you've just led, with no followers. Some folks are picturing that scenario here, but I think the majority of readers might be closer to the extended-toproping scenario, where a use-your-biners/last-person-raps approach is reasonable and community-friendly advice.
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mhr2000
Jun 4, 2003, 5:41 PM
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Heck, it's simple common sense that you shouldn't toprope or lower directly off chains. Even a newbie like myself can see that. Anytime you have stuff rubbing together it's a bad thing and after several 100 people doing this it's going to become a problem. It's not a matter of ethics unless you know better and still don't care. The guy I went to JFalls with setup TR with his own draws and after we were done climbing he rappelled off the chains. It only took one time for him to explain why he did both and it made perfect sense. Clearly it's not a life or death thing until it's you hanging from the chains and didn't notice them 3/4's worn through.
These two things have been on my "Not to do list" since that day.
I'm sure there is always an exception where lowering just works out better, but occasional use isn't the issue.
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jt512
Jun 4, 2003, 6:00 PM
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Well, I got dragged back into it. At sport areas, the question of whether it is ok to lower or toprope off the chains/anchors is decided by local custom. At any sport crag I've climbed at, it is has been considered acceptable for the last climber in the party to lower directly off the anchors. At some areas, it is considered acceptable for everyone to lower off the anchors, but not to toprope through them. And at some areas, anything goes, including TRing. If you are a local, do what the other locals do. If you are a visitor and aren't sure what the local custom is, then assume that only the last person should lower through the anchors.
Yes, anchors wear out and eventually need to be replaced. This does not make it unethical to use them. If the locals say "go ahead and TR through the chains," then do it. The chains will be replaced when they become too worn. This is normal maintenance.
-Jay
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alpinerockfiend
Jun 4, 2003, 6:34 PM
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In reply to: If links are that worn out from such heavy use (and I've never seen it), what is the problem with the local community that lets it get to that state of affairs?
Here in Jackson, much of last summer and fall was spent replacing old chains on which the last links were worn almost paper thin. People still TR'd and lowered from them! I've seen it in Sinks Canyon and Wild Iris near Lander as well. It's hard for me to believe that someone who has been climbing for 30 years has never seen any evidence of this! Use your own goddamned gear! Save the chains for the last person to go up/down.
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pico23
Jun 4, 2003, 11:15 PM
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In reply to: Heck, it's simple common sense...Even a newbie like myself can see that...Anytime you have stuff rubbing together it's a bad thing and after several 100 people doing this it's going to become a problem.
Well I'll disagree with the anytime you have stuff rubbing together part. I personally like my stuff rubbing with my wifes stuff but yeah if it was several 100 people then it might be a bad thing.
Seriously though, I'm not sure what of sick universe we are in but Matt actually is right. I don't think the chains were intended to be top roped off of. Now lowering might be a different animal altogether but why accelerate the process of the chains wearing out if it can be avoided? I'd say rap when possible and never top rope off them.
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drkodos
Jun 4, 2003, 11:24 PM
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I was only commenting on the anchors I have installed.
I agree with other posters that it is a local custom type of thing.
The aluminum of carabiners wears much faster than stainless steel.
And yes, possibly because I do not do a lot of sport climbing, I have not seen chain links that were dangerously worn out. My bad. Sorry that there are still some areas I have not had the pleaseure of climbing.
As one that has spent my own $$$ and time on anchors, I respect the customs of other areas. When I'm in Rome, I certainly try to do as the Romans do.
My main point is that lowering from chains is not the end-all that some people would have it be.....
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jt512
Jun 5, 2003, 1:38 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Heck, it's simple common sense...Even a newbie like myself can see that...Anytime you have stuff rubbing together it's a bad thing and after several 100 people doing this it's going to become a problem. Seriously though, I'm not sure what of sick universe we are in but Matt actually is right. I don't think the chains were intended to be top roped off of. Now lowering might be a different animal altogether but why accelerate the process of the chains wearing out if it can be avoided? I'd say rap when possible and never top rope off them.
No, the Universe is operating normally: Matt is wrong. Remember we're talking sport areas here (see the original post). Local custom dictates. If you don't know the local custom, play it safe: TR and lower off your own draws, unless you are the last person in your group to climb the route; then, clean your draws and lower thru the anchors. At a sport crag you never need to rappel to keep the anchors in good condition. Of course, if the anchors are already in bad shape, rappel, so that you don't become a statistic. However, at many sport crags, everybody lowers thru the anchors, and at a few sport crags everybody TRs thru the anchors, and they do so with the blessing of the locals who maintain the routes. I have had FAists, who maintain their routes, approach me and tell me that they TR off their anchors and that it I should too.
-Jay
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moabbeth
Jun 5, 2003, 2:12 AM
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Flamingfeet: the best way to clean a route is with Ajax and a Brillo pad.
:lol: Sorry, all the arguing over this post just made me have to post some meaningless comment in here. :lol:
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redpoint73
Jun 5, 2003, 2:32 AM
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In reply to: Dennis, I'm confused - why would severely overhung stuff lead someone to prefer lowering over rapping to clear a sport lead anchor? That is what you are saying right?
timpanogos,
On severely overhanging climbs, (I specifically have hard sport climbs in mind) you can't clean your draws by simply rapping or lowering straight down. you would be stuck dangling 10-15 feet or more away from the rock. You have to "trap in" -- before you lower off, you clip a draw to your harness and the other end on the side of the rope that goes down thru the draws. As you lower, the trap keeps you somewhat closer to the wall. On really overhanging terrain, as you clean a draw you will actually have to stop lowering, then pull yourself in by the rope (the part of it that goes to the draw you are cleaning), then unclip the draw.
To some extent, you can trap-in on rappel (as someone else has mentioned). But on severely overhanging routes its not practical. I've never attempted it, but maybe someone has some tricks on how it can be done. All that I can think is: 1) You would have to secure the end of the rope near the ground, so that you can yard youself back into the rock to get the draws. 2) You would have to worry about securing the rope in braked position at each draw (prussik or wrapping around your leg, etc.) in order to free your hands to pull in and clean the draws. This all would seem very sketchy to me.
As I mentioned, you can still have someone else clean the draws as he/she climbs the route on toprope, then that person can rap off as regularly. But this requires that there always be at least one person that is both able to finish the route, and not want to lead it.
There are plenty of overhanging and "roofy" climbs that don't have an edge that will abrade your rope. Especially if the person who placed the bolts did a good job. Often, the rope isn't touching anything except the draws, or there are some smooth bulges and you just lower slowly.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong advocate or rapping of instead of lowering, and I usually do it as much as it is practical. And as JT512 wisely points out, a big part of it depends on where you climb and what is accepted there. I happen to be fortunate enough that I climb where many of the routes have been pretty recently equipped, and hardware is very high quality (lots of beefy stainless steel rings or quick-clips). And the local climbing community is very active about inspecting the hardware and replacing it.
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mhr2000
Jun 5, 2003, 2:42 AM
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In reply to: No, the Universe is operating normally: Matt is wrong.
Here we go again!
Well, saying I'm straight up wrong is a bit much really. Maybe it's a difference in your opinion. I for one see no purpose in adding to the chain wear, even if it is mute point to you. I don't think it's my duty to research the local customs to find out if it's ok to lower or TR off the chains. I figure following the simple guideline of NOT doing either will satisfy the locals of any climbing area I go to and I'm sure they, unlike you, would appreciate my efforts.
You see the difference?
It's a matter of just doing the low impact method to begin with and not having to worry whether or not it's going to be accepted. That's not so difficult now is it?
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timpanogos
Jun 5, 2003, 5:58 AM
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Dennis,
I see what you mean - I had assumed the route was cleaned by a second with my comments. severally overhung (or traversing) routes could load your QD/Binners with such force that the quick swing in and hope to unclip on deadpoint, just does not work. Trying to unload the pro can be as hard as climbing the darn thing in the first place, maybe impossible with out implementing aiding techniques(see PTPP's cleaning a aid pitch with a grigri, ascender and adjustable fifi) - yep, I've done it, and know about cleaning loaded pro.
Always an exception to the rule - stuff like this, you do what you have to do.
Chad
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mhr2000
Jun 5, 2003, 1:40 PM
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Redpoint73, I actually saw a similiar situation you talk about with an added twist. A guy had just started to lower off when I came by and as he went down I noticed he had a draw attached to his harness and the rope which kept him from swinging out. As he reached each draw he would take another draw and clip it the rope end of the draw going to his harness then clip it to the bolt. He would hang on that for a minute, take the original draw off the bolt and clip it to the rope below everything else and back to his harness. He would then grab the draw draw attached to the bolt and pull himself in enough to relieve the pressure and remove the upper draw that was attached to his harness, and put it back on a gear loop. He left the second draw that he put in the bolt because he was setting them for another guy who wanted to lead the route with his draws in place. With the original draw now keeping him in place he would lower down again and repeat it for the rest. It seamed like quite a chore also and the guy he set the draws for was very appreciative.
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jumaringjeff
Jun 5, 2003, 1:44 PM
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I usually like to use soap and warm water with a lint-free rag when I clean routes.
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jt512
Jun 5, 2003, 6:44 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: No, the Universe is operating normally: Matt is wrong. Here we go again! Well, saying I'm straight up wrong is a bit much really. Maybe it's a difference in your opinion.
Here we go again, indeed. You have only climbed like what, 2 routes? You're not in a position to have an opinion yet. You should be listening to others at this point.
In reply to: I don't think it's my duty to research the local customs to find out if it's ok to lower or TR off the chains.
It is your duty to determine what the local customs are when you go to a new area. Ethics are largely determined locally in this sport. What is considered proper behavior at one locale is considered improper at another.
In reply to: I figure following the simple guideline of NOT doing either will satisfy the locals of any climbing area I go to and I'm sure they, unlike you, would appreciate my efforts.
Like I said, Dimwit, when in doubt do the conservative thing, which is to lower off draws, or if you are the last climber, to lower off the anchors. At sport crags, no one is going to appreciate you rappelling. You'll just look like the gumby that you are.
-Jay
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jt512
Jun 5, 2003, 6:46 PM
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In reply to: Redpoint73, I actually saw a similiar situation you talk about with an added twist. A guy had just started to lower off when I came by and as he went down I noticed he had a draw attached to his harness and the rope which kept him from swinging out. As he reached each draw he would take another draw and clip it the rope end of the draw going to his harness then clip it to the bolt. He would hang on that for a minute, take the original draw off the bolt and clip it to the rope below everything else and back to his harness. He would then grab the draw draw attached to the bolt and pull himself in enough to relieve the pressure and remove the upper draw that was attached to his harness, and put it back on a gear loop. He left the second draw that he put in the bolt because he was setting them for another guy who wanted to lead the route with his draws in place. With the original draw now keeping him in place he would lower down again and repeat it for the rest. It seamed like quite a chore also and the guy he set the draws for was very appreciative.
OMG, you actually saw someone cleaning a route! That's incredible, Matt! Thanks for sharing!!!!
-Jay
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