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graniteboy
Jan 13, 2002, 3:25 AM
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I've been up the big mountain a few times. My take on it is that most people climbing there should not be there at all. They DO just want the "denali belt buckle" to show that they've climbed it. They have not paid their dues, and, consequently, they are always getting in trouble. This has resulted in The park service imposing peak fees on climbers.
These days, I've been shying away from the West Buttress area, cause it's too full of know it all Bumbly pegs who get in trouble or killed. I like the North and East sides of the mountain. This year, It's hunter and huntington.
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ravens_wing_jim
Jan 13, 2002, 3:26 AM
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Dude, that was way cool!
I really enjoyed reading that.
And it makes me think about all those unclimbed peaks!
Denali's cool...but what about those unclimbed peaks?!!....yeah baby yeah!
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climbchick
Jan 13, 2002, 3:58 AM
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I'm sure people have many different reasons for wanting to climb Denali -- but for me the mountain's reputation is a challenge and I know I would get tremendous personal satisfaction out of doing (and surviving) something so difficult and dangerous. I would be a totally different person when I returned. This quote from Reinhold Messner sums it up best:
"Coming back is like starting a new life -- it is a deep, deep breath. To go, to risk, to search for our limits and to come back."
Whenever I face down my fears and push through my own mental and physical barriers, it gives me a glimpse of courage and strength that I didn't know or believe I had. Then I carry the knowledge of that around with me and everything else in my life seems to feed from it. I'm addicted to the battle of escaping my limits. The challenge of Denali is really just a bigger and better battle -- but ultimately a battle with myself. And why Denali ? -- because it's the highest. Seems a bit silly, writing it down, but I want to be able to think to myself that I have climbed the highest peak on the continent.
Right now, the idea of climbing Denali is just a fond dream for the future. But when and if I am ready to climb it, I will do so without a guide service and as far away from the West Buttress route as possible. I want to experience the beauty of the mountain as well. Crowds and litter definitely don't do it for me!
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beyond_gravity
Jan 14, 2002, 12:58 AM
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Denali? Dangerouse? I laughf at you Denali has been turned into a pitful tourist mountain like Everest. whats the challenge of climbing 20,000 feet of fixed rope up the west butress? thats also as bad as people paying $65,000 (or more, god help them) to jumar up everest. I'd much rather climb somthing equilly as challanging, but that's climbed alot less, like lets say mount Hunter. If you wanna climb somthing knowen, but still very challenging, try doing the 4km ridge traversse at 18,000 on Mt Logan. Rookie climbers that pay guides to do the climbing for this are pitifuly turning out prodest mountains like Denli and Everest into overpriced sightseeing tours.
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pushfurther
Jan 14, 2002, 3:04 PM
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welcome to the world of capitalism.
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jaydoc
Jan 14, 2002, 4:21 PM
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Yeah, I've read all the "Everest is Really Safe and Easy to Climb" books. Funny, they never really say that it's easy. Or safe.
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runner
Jan 14, 2002, 10:06 PM
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uncle stu. once again i solute you (check the environment section--i dug what went on).
MUCH TOO often climbers climb for the damn bragging rights.
all this espn2 and xgames hype blows climbers' heads up and invites a slew of new kids that wanna skip from being beginner to the next Conrad Ancor on magazine covers and product endorsements.
there's so much more to the climbing than that.
so much more to be gained from it personally and spiritually.
i LOVED on "seven years in tibet" when that beautiful tibetan woman calls climbing "a fool's pleasure."
climbing is gaining popularity because people have less to do. that's why fewer "third world" inhabitants climb.
that's why the first alpinists were from the early colonial powers.
BUT there is that romantic purity and simplicity in the solitude of the outdoors.
there nothing so awe inspiring as standing in a place so serene you'd swear you could hear the earth turn. where you can't tell the vibrations of the earth from your own heart.
it doesn't have to be an "extreme sport."
it doesn't have to be another outgrowth of mankind's egotism.
it is possible to learn from climbing.
to make it your way of intimating yourself with powers that transcend you and your tiny self.
to feel yourself become (a minute yet independent and in its own way powerful)part of that power.
i think there is a lot to the fact that so many of the world's great spiritual journeys have taken place on a mountaintop.
[ This Message was edited by: runner on 2002-01-14 14:09 ]
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beyond_gravity
Jan 14, 2002, 11:02 PM
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OK, dude, I dont mean it's not dangourese, or hard. It's not techincally difficult. Hell, the only thing that gonna kill you on everest is a strom, avalanche, AMS or having a big ass ice chunk fall on you. It's no longer real climbing is what i'm pointing at. Jugging up ropes fixed by the sherpa's isn't my idea of climbing.
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atg200
Jan 14, 2002, 11:20 PM
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Ah, I see, being a 15 year old sport climber gives you the wealth of experience to know what high altitude mountaineering is all about?
I think people going to the great ranges and being guided is lame too, but to say it isn't climbing is to really display your inexperience.
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polarwid
Jan 15, 2002, 12:47 AM
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Hey Stu...
Climbed Denali back in '85...it was starting to be a Shitpile then and I am sure it is worse now. Did the W.B. but not guided and in less than a week from Talkeetna to Talkeetna. At least I only met three other parties on my ascent. Living in AK I now read the daily stories of queues for the summit of 50 or more people. It is ridiculous. I can see Denali, Foraker(Sultana) and Hunter every day when I drive to work...amazing that over 200 miles away they still rise a fair amount over the horizon. Coming over the rise in the Parks highway driving to Talkeetna it literally SMACKS you in the face. Amazing how BIG it really is. If I decide to climb in the Alaska range again it will be in the RUTH GORGE of up on Deborah or Hayes. No crowds...I hate crowds. Give me a call sometime and drag my old bones out of my house and we will go bag some peaks.
Dreaming of a quiet peak...
DOUG
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beyond_gravity
Jan 15, 2002, 2:09 AM
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I wouldnt say inexperience, I have all my respect for the people who challange themselfves, but in my personal opion, I think there's better ways to spend $65,000, for that price you could make 10 unguided trips to nepal. And i dont see why you'd want to jug up some one the best climbing in the world. Just my opinon.
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rlkelley
Jan 15, 2002, 2:51 AM
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abcd
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climbchick
Jan 15, 2002, 3:45 AM
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I'm sitting here looking at a picture of a sunrise on the south side of Denali. I bought a "Denali Calendar" in Anchorage and have it pinned up next to my desk. I look at it often. Whenever I've daydreamed about actually getting there, I've always imagined standing on the summit alone. Sometimes I've imagined being there with someone I love. Now I'm having visions of standing there on the edge of a crowd and not even being able to turn my back on them. Makes me want to run away. Guess I'll just have to do a winter ascent Surely THAT would guarantee some solitude (??) and would be dangerous enough even for Beyond_Gravity
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graniteboy
Jan 15, 2002, 4:19 AM
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Hey, let's give the young kid (Mr Gravity) a little slack. I think he's seen the error he made. On the other hand, having paid my alpinism dues in Alaska very, very thoroughly, I generally tend to agree with him. Too many people who pay someone because they have no experience, and they refuse to get experience the hard way, Because they're lazy. And that's not only cheating, but it puts other, more experienced parties in jeapordy. I think Denali should be a "no fly" mountain. Airplanes have made that peak way too accessible to bumbly pegs. As much as I like the Bush pilots up there, and hope they continue to do well financially, I know that if the NPS made everyone who wanted to do that mountain walk in the petersville road or in from Wonder lake, there'd be no crowds. And damn few rescues. No circus. No Clowns. No need for Big Brother NPS patrols.
Having just said that, this year I'll be flown onto the Tokositna to do my mountains. BUT this will be the first time I've flown onto the mountain in the last three trips. So I'm guilty as charged.
Anyway, it's the last place on earth. And it's holy. But pay your dues first.
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beyond_gravity
Jan 15, 2002, 5:22 AM
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I've never climbed any major peaks, insted when i'm driving along the road, i'll yell out, "pull over" get out, look at an interesting peak, look for some route, and try to get to the top. somtimes it works, sometimes it dont. But i'm sure i'm the first person to climb that route, thats where I get my personal satisfaction. I also wonder if some one else has been on the summit. I allways leave a carrin and a summit log book. I went back to a few peaks last summer and only found 1 name outta the 3 books i cheaked. For me, this is a much for fun way of enjoying the mountains, rather then being chained down to a rope. I'd really like to do some remote, unclimbed peaks in Alaska or Nepal, theres somthing amazing about being the only person to be at one of the most beautiful places on earth.
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beyond_gravity
Jan 16, 2002, 5:17 AM
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Why dont more people do winter mountaineering? I mean, i think is totally more fun then sitting around doing dude all up the local crag. I mean like dude, pyce out.
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graniteboy
Jan 16, 2002, 7:04 AM
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To all of Y'all; Quit dreaming, and start training. Denali is attainable without a guide if you just train hard, do a lot of lower 48 alpinism, and get your winter camping skills honed to a sharp edge.
Good Luck. Granite
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atg200
Jan 16, 2002, 3:14 PM
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Good question bg. In the summer you can't climb a 14er in Colorado without seeing a horde of people, but I have only run into a small handful of people in all the winter mountaineering I have done.
Partly its because of the suffering, and partly its because the stakes are higher. Avalanches, whiteouts, no trails, and no people to bail you out if you get in trouble make it a much more committing experience.
I haven't climbed in Alaska yet(thats next), but I have climbed quite a bit in the Andes. I've never used a guide in my life. I learned by paying my dues in the US highcountry in summer, then winter, then on the glaciated volanoes in the Cascades, then Mexico for high altitude experience, and then to South America. If more people did this and didn't take shortcuts, there wouldn't be so many rescues, deaths, and sheeple being guided up mountains.
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polarwid
Dec 17, 2002, 11:16 PM
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[small]This topic was moved to the Alpine & Ice forum by polarwid[/small]
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petsfed
Dec 17, 2002, 11:45 PM
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They don't do winter mountaineering because there isn't that safety net that you lament so much B_G. No doubt I would love to climb Denali or Everest or what have you. However, I don't want to do the regular routes. The Czeck Direct appeals to me. As does the still unclimbed ridge on Everest that killed Joe Tasker. To insult climbing Denali for one route (the West Buttress in this case) is kind of dumb. Its like hating El Cap for all the gumbies on the Nose.
I *don't like* guides in general. However, it is a necessary evil sometimes, especially in an unmoderated sport like this. Some people want to get into the sport, but lack the time and not the resources to do so. Beck Weathers for example. His medical practice kept him from paying his dues, but he still had Walter Mitty dreams (and if you don't get that allusion, go to school and pay attention please). He is one hard motherf**ker. If it weren't for the fact that he's missing an arm, I'd climb with him any day of the week. Guides help bring people like that into the sport. I'd *like* to think that they wouldn't put others in danger, but even experienced people screw-up which puts people in danger regardless. And as you say, Denali is a walkup. The hardest damned walkup any of us will ever do, but still a walkup. Would you prefer those same gumbies learning on Huntington, the Czeck Direct, or the Infinite Spur?
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jhump
Dec 18, 2002, 12:05 AM
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My Denali dream does not center on the highest status...in fact I wish it were lower so it was less crowded. I am drawn to its fantastic routes. Huge, committing, with amazing position. This is what I seek, and Denali has got it. I envision myself travelling fast with thousands of feet disappearing under my feet. If I could top out on the Cassin, that may be as good as it gets. I may not even go to the summit. Just to experience that direct shot up the massive south face, I think all that I ever wanted from climbing may be achieved.
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space_monkey
Dec 18, 2002, 3:13 PM
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Here is my opinion: Lets quit talking about it and do it!
If anyone is up for climbing high mnts where ever they may be, then lets do it
I would climb any mnt anywhere anytime...not for bragging rights or the golden buckle that comes with it, but for a peice of mind I get when doing so.
Great Post: I'm all fired up about climbing NOW!
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jhump
Dec 18, 2002, 5:48 PM
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Departing 5/16/03.
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bandycoot
Dec 18, 2002, 8:05 PM
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All those people bagging on Denali climbers: grow up! Don't make yourself feel better by discrediting what others do. Why do people climb the Nose of El Cap? It's technically easy, I've seen it rated as low as 5.8 A1. I'm sure some experienced climbers could refer to is as a slog, like experienced mountaineers do about Denali. There are much more difficult climbs, but are they as beautiful? Have any of you seen Denali? Oh my god IT IS BEAUTIFUL! Probably one of the most impressive mountains in the world, taller than Everest base to peak! Yes it is big, but that isn't the only reason people climb it, that is PART of the reason. It is aesthetically pleasing, something that most, if not all climbers search for in a climb. Not everyone can be the best, so they do the easiest path up it, guided. What makes some climbers better so that not everyone should share in the wonderful experience that climbing is? Not that I want the hills/mountains/crags crowded, but if someone wants to climb one of the most beautiful mountains in the world, power to them (as long as they leave no trace of course)!!!
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jhump
Dec 18, 2002, 8:43 PM
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That is precisely the problem, they don't leave no trace. I have seen the destruction that commerce has brought on Aconcagua. And why...because its the highest. So what. And when a mountain becomes a product, it is the climbers who must pay the monster peak fees. If people would just hold back a few years and get the experience they needed, they could hack Denali alone. Sure, fewer people would get to experience Denali, but its worth the wait. I have waited six years to prepare myself to climb that jewel of a mountain in a style I respect on a line that inspires me.
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